Creative Group Supervision

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    • 00:01

      [MUSIC PLAYING][Creative Group Supervision with Brigid Proctor & FrancescaInskipp][A programme from the University of Wales, Newport]

    • 00:27

      MIKE SIMMONS: Hello.My name's Mike Simmons.And I teach counselling at the University of Wales, Newport.Brigid Proctor and Francesca Inskipphas been a hugely influential presence in the worldof counseling for many years.Their work on counseling, counseling training,and supervision has had a profound impact

    • 00:48

      MIKE SIMMONS [continued]: on very many of us.We've been lucky enough at the universityto be visited by them on a number of occasions,but over the last year or so they'vemade two visits which were directly relatedto the program you're now watching.On the first of these they ran a prolonged group supervisionsession with a number of my colleagues

    • 01:10

      MIKE SIMMONS [continued]: in the role of supervisee.I say role because this was essentially a role play,but it certainly didn't feel like one.It felt very real.Nevertheless it's worth emphasizingthat these were experienced counseling trainers and one notso experienced counselor playing a role, that

    • 01:32

      MIKE SIMMONS [continued]: of trainee supervisees just starting outinto the counseling world.Once I'd edited the tape Brigid and Francescacame back for their second visit to watch it with me,and to talk about the work that had taken place.What you're seeing here is made upof excerpts from that conversation and excerpts

    • 01:54

      MIKE SIMMONS [continued]: from the group supervision session itself.This program is really made up of two separate partsThe first shows the way in which the group formed,while the second demonstrates the actual exercisesthat the group engaged in.Before we started watching the session,however, I had a question to ask Brigid and Francesca.

    • 02:17

      MIKE SIMMONS [continued]: Brigid, Francesca, welcome back to the university.The work you did when you came to usbefore was all around group supervision.And that left me thinking a bit about just what you seeis the advantages of group supervision opposedto individual?

    • 02:36

      BRIGID PROCTOR: I suppose the main advantageis that people have access to so many moreclients and so many different perspectiveson a single client.If people only have two clients of their ownit immediately gives them multiplied by three or four,depending on the size of the group.

    • 02:57

      MIKE SIMMONS: Right And so there are two advantages, really.One which is about, I am able to get a perspective on my clientsfrom a number of other people.

    • 03:05


    • 03:05

      MIKE SIMMONS: But also I'm able to get a perspectiveon other people's clients.

    • 03:09

      BRIGID PROCTOR: That's right.And then the way other people, so it's three really.

    • 03:14

      MIKE SIMMONS: Yes.

    • 03:15

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: And I think it's alsofor people who are struggling, realizing that other counselorsare struggling.It's not a perfect way of doing things.And to be able to recognize that other people arehaving difficulties as well.

    • 03:30

      MIKE SIMMONS: I think that's a hugely powerful thing,isn't it?To know that--

    • 03:32

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Yes.It changes the power somehow.

    • 03:34

      MIKE SIMMONS: Yes.Everyone else isn't doing it perfectly.OK,

    • 03:38

      BRIGID PROCTOR: And also providedthat the group is well run, and thisis why we're particularly interested in writingand talking about group supervision,if the group's well run the power dynamicis quite different than between an individualand an individual supervisor.

    • 03:59

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: In individual supervision there'smore likelihood of the supervisee coming inwith feelings about authority of one sort or another,which they themselves struggle with the supervisor with.But in a group, of course, there are authority things,

    • 04:21

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: but at least it isn't a one to one authority issue.So I suppose that's an advantage.

    • 04:31

      MIKE SIMMONS: I guess my experience of group supervisionhas been of the supervisor being maybemore facilitative of something going on,rather than the slightly scary one to one.

    • 04:43

      BRIGID PROCTOR: If well run.

    • 04:44

      MIKE SIMMONS: If well run.What about disadvantages?

    • 04:51

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Well, one of the disadvantagesis that competitiveness can come up pretty strongly in the groupbecause the power issues are different.But the power's may be between people.People may feel very competitive with each other, I think.

    • 05:05

      MIKE SIMMONS: Competitive through-- I want my time?

    • 05:07

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Yes.And she's doing better than I am.I'm not so good.

    • 05:13

      MIKE SIMMONS: I can imagine a situationwhere we're all trying to shine in front of the supervisor.

    • 05:20

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: And each other.

    • 05:22

      MIKE SIMMONS: Yes.Aren't I clever?

    • 05:24

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Yes.But of course that brings up the confidentiality.

    • 05:28

      MIKE SIMMONS: Yes.

    • 05:29

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: As well, particularly peoplewho are working in the same area who may know families,or things from clients there.

    • 05:42

      MIKE SIMMONS: Now the lengthy roleplay that you did when you came to visit us before,the first thing you did was engage groupwith the ground rules.And engage them with a working agreement.And you took quite a lot of time around that.It seemed very important to have that firmly established.

    • 06:03

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Yes.And in creating a working alliance, which we seegoes hand in hand really.And the working agreement, the wider contractseems to-- that if NSP people recognize

    • 06:24

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: they will be working within their own individual rules,as it were, and as they recognizethe shared professional commitment very clearly.And the things that are laid down about good practice,really, and agree to those together,we think there's a rich field for endless battling without it

    • 06:48

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: being clear what's it's about.It needn't be battles.I can be open discussion rather than a battle.

    • 06:53

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: The thing is we'dlike to give them the ground rules before we start the groupso that they've got those before they come into the groupalmost.And then that can be the basis for making the workingagreement.

    • 07:05

      MIKE SIMMONS: I was going to ask you about that because theywere two different things.Is it the ground rules the pretty non-negotiable things?

    • 07:16

      BRIGID PROCTOR: It's the working agreement, I think,that's more non-negotiable.

    • 07:20

      MIKE SIMMONS: Right.

    • 07:21

      BRIGID PROCTOR: It's the things that are laid downin the code of ethics in the agency,and the training course, the things that are set for usand we're working within, whether we alwaysagree with them or not.

    • 07:35

      MIKE SIMMONS: They're the way in which we all practice.

    • 07:38

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Yes.And that I think is the wider working agreement.Whereas the ground rules are more aboutwhat happens in the group, aren't they?

    • 07:46

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Sometimes called good manners.

    • 07:48

      MIKE SIMMONS: Right.In that our particular group.

    • 07:49

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: In our particular group.

    • 07:50


    • 07:51


    • 07:53

      MIKE SIMMONS: Right.Well, as I said, that was the first thingthat you did when you were working with our group.Let's just have a look at the start of the sessionthat you ran.

    • 08:02

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Well, welcome back.Good to see again.We met last week, you remember, justfor you to tell each other about your coursesthat you're on and a bit more about yourself.And this time we're coming back to getto know each other a bit more on this session.And then to spend some time on looking-- you'veall had a chance to look at the sort of ground rules,

    • 08:24

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP [continued]: which we've suggested for this group.And what we want to do is to spend a bit of time thinkingabout those and then at the end to make a workingagreement on looking at those rules,and how you would like to work.Brigid and I are both going to be in the group,but we'll take it in turns as to who's running it.So to know a little bit more about each other, what

    • 08:47

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP [continued]: I'd like you to do is to think of an adjective,a very positive adjective that describes you and isthe same sounding as your name.For instance, if I said fantastic Francesca.There.Very positive, I'm saying.And then what I'd like for you to do as well because

    • 09:08

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP [continued]: in supervision often we talk about things we can't do.I want you to tell us something that youdo well, not a work thing, not I'm[INAUDIBLE] or a work thing, but something [INAUDIBLE].For me I would say I'm really good at using up

    • 09:28

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP [continued]: all the old odds and ends in the fridgeand making an interesting meal out of them.That's my speciality I think.So Brigid, would you like to give them another example of?

    • 09:39

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Oh, Blessed Brigid.And I suppose what I'm good at, I was thinking yesterdaywhen I was driving down to see my brother who'snot well that what I would miss if I died,if you see which I mean.And thought how much I enjoyed driving.And I think I drive well.

    • 10:01

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: And I really love it.

    • 10:03

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Who'd like to go on?

    • 10:05

      NORMA JAMES: All right.I'll go first then.OK.Naughty Norma.

    • 10:10

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Is that positive?Yes, it is.

    • 10:12

      NORMA JAMES: Yes.It is.[LAUGHTER]Because I'm always so good most of the time.Yeah.And I find something over the weekendthat I'm really, really good at.I'm really good at braising lamb shanks.They fell off the bone.

    • 10:34

      NORMA JAMES [continued]: They were mm.God yes.

    • 10:37

      LYNDA MIZEN: I think I'd say likeable Lynda.And I would say I'm good at first aid in termsof if there's a problem, an emergency then I can I usuallyshore something up in a crisis.

    • 10:59

      JULIE JONES: Joyous Julie, I think because I do smile a lot.And I laugh a lot as well.I like to see the positive things in life, I think.And something I'm very good at, going out and spendinglots of money on clothes.[LAUGHTER]

    • 11:18

      TESS BROOKS-SHEPPARD: Terrific Tess.And I think I'm good at yoga.

    • 11:26

      JULIA MARTIN: Jesting Julia.And what am I good at?Climbing hills?Being out to-- yes.I'm good at getting away-- escaping.I'm good at escaping.

    • 11:47

      MIKE SIMMONS: So the first thing you'redoing there is just establishing a name game.You're asking them to do something with their nameand you're asking them to attributesome positive characteristic to that name.

    • 12:01

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: And see this is really importantand beginning to build a working alliance.They're people beginning to get to know somethingabout each other.And also it lightens it up.Notice how they're laughing.

    • 12:15

      MIKE SIMMONS: Yes.

    • 12:16

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: A release of tension.

    • 12:18


    • 12:19

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: I think in the laughing.And knowing something about them outside.That's why I say it's important to tell us somethingyou do well, not work.

    • 12:31

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Yes.Because I think that breaks a stereotype.I mean, very quickly when people come into a groupthey begin to stereotype people, to takecare of who are these people here, and she's a this,and she's a that.And somehow when people talk about what they do outsideit breaks the stereotypes.The more inexperienced may suddenlyturn out to have something that people are absolutely

    • 12:54

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: amazed by.And it just stops developing premature stereotypes really.

    • 12:59

      MIKE SIMMONS: Right.I mean, and there's something interestingI was thinking while we were watching it,that these people are actually colleagues of mine.They're role playing being a supervision group.

    • 13:10


    • 13:11

      MIKE SIMMONS: So they're not really being supervised,but actually there's quite a lot of tension.

    • 13:17


    • 13:17

      MIKE SIMMONS: We're in a studio.We're going to do this thing.What's it going to be like?And the exercise actually had the same effectto this role playing group that it would have hadto a real supervision group.

    • 13:29

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Yes.And I think that was notable, wasn't it?How much it felt to us very quickly like a serious group,although we knew that they were bringingcases that were amalgam of other cases, not real clientsand so on for the confidentiality.

    • 13:46

      MIKE SIMMONS: Even though the name gamewas intended to relax people, to make them feel a bit moreat ease, we sort of got a sense that for some peoplethere was quite a lot of hesitancy.They were still a bit unsure.

    • 14:00

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Well, it is always difficult for peopleto say something they're good at.It's against our culture.

    • 14:06

      MIKE SIMMONS: Right.

    • 14:06

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: We've always beentaught it is wrong in our culture to boast.And I think that sets that in supervision Iwant people to say what they're good at,as well as what they're not doing so well at.And so that starts the sort of culture that in this groupit is OK to boast.

    • 14:23

      MIKE SIMMONS: Right.I was in fact talking to some counselors,doing some other work fairly recently,and someone was talking about the difficultyof taking anything good that they'd done to a supervisor.They felt relaxed about taking the bad stuff, but notthe good stuff.Right.Let's look at it a bit more.

    • 14:41

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: What we'd liketo do now is for you to spend just a few minutes,the three of you talking, and the two of youtalking to discuss these ground rules,what you've read of them.Are there any questions you'd like to ask about them?Or are there any thoughts you've got before wego on to the next session?So just spend a little time.Just turn your chairs around a little bit

    • 15:03

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP [continued]: without disturbing the microphones too much.And just see anything that you'd-- talking about what youfelt like when you got them, when you read them.

    • 15:15

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Timing.Timing?

    • 15:17

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Five minutes.

    • 15:21

      NORMA JAMES: When I saw these I thought Iquite like this reading.This was being more trusting.

    • 15:27

      TESS BROOKS-SHEPPARD: I've gotten nervous that everyone--[INTERPOSING VOICES]

    • 15:32

      NORMA JAMES: Good reason not to trust.

    • 15:33

      TESS BROOKS-SHEPPARD: What if I've missed something reallyobvious--[INTERPOSING VOICES]

    • 15:46

      LYNDA MIZEN: I think it's how [INAUDIBLE].

    • 15:48


    • 15:55

      MIKE SIMMONS: Quite quickly after that exercise you thenbroke them up into smaller groups, into twosand threes to do some work.

    • 16:03

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Yes.Well, it seems important so that peopleknow you can break a group up into smaller groups.Gives them an opportunity to talk more easily.Some people find it quite difficultto talk in the main group, I think.And that's then-- almost it gives theman opportunity to speak more openly perhapsin twos and threes.

    • 16:23

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP [continued]: And to bounce things off each other more easily.

    • 16:26


    • 16:27

      MIKE SIMMONS: And maybe gain some confidence in doing that.

    • 16:29

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Yes.It ups the possibility for some working intimacy.[INTERPOSING VOICES]

    • 16:39

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: OK.So any questions you've got on this or any thoughts or?And you'll notice that it's put down all of youunder different roles.And in this group you have a lot of roles.Well, I don't know how that works for you.

    • 16:57

      JULIE JONES: I think what we sort of thoughtabout was that we all might be sortof working from different theoretical orientations,different backgrounds.

    • 17:08


    • 17:08

      JULIE JONES: And how was that perhaps goingto work in a group supervision?So we've [INAUDIBLE] with this, unsure howthat might sit with the group.

    • 17:19

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Yes, you said last timethat you were on different coursesand had got different backgrounds there.And it is really being able to listen to each otherand hear those before you jump in to say, oh, but.[INAUDIBLE]I mean, I think that what we can--we learn an awful lot from each others' different ways

    • 17:42

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP [continued]: of looking at the same client.There.How's that sound?

    • 17:48

      LYNDA MIZEN: I was just thinking whenI'm in the role of the supervisee,and presenting, we were talking togetherabout would we be using the names of our clientsbecause we felt a little concerned about confidentialityif we use real names.

    • 18:03

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Don't use real names.Have a pseudonym for your-- and rememberto write it down opposite yours sothat you remember it next time because you don'thave to ask the group, and say, whodid I call this one last time?Well, so right it down on the one the namesyou're going to use because you are roughlyworking across the same sort of areas,

    • 18:26

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP [continued]: although you're coming from different parts of the county.So it is really important to maintain confidentialityas much as-- but also, well, this will partof the agreement.We'll talk about how important it is notto divulge anything that happens in the group,but sometimes by disguising your client it is easier

    • 18:46

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP [continued]: for other people.They don't recognize them then perhaps.Oh, that was my brother's girlfriend, or a [INAUDIBLE].Anything else?

    • 18:56

      JULIA MARTIN: There was an issue about responsibility for methat we discussed in terms of, all of these rolesare quite different.And that sort of personal responsibilityof speaking, not speaking, making surethat you're participating equally and sortof merging everything.Seems like there's a lot going on.

    • 19:17

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: So it is a lot going on.And this is partly our job as conductor,if you like, of this to help you move into the different roles.But if you recognize the different roles you're in,that's part of the beginning of it.

    • 19:32

      JULIA MARTIN: Thank you

    • 19:33

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Anything else?

    • 19:34

      TESS BROOKS-SHEPPARD: I was quite concerned about howthings would be pointed out to me because I still feel so new.If there's something that might seemobvious to everyone else that I'vemissed, how that's going to be pointed out to [INAUDIBLE].

    • 19:46

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: You want the feedback to be gentle,you're saying?

    • 19:49


    • 19:50

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: At the beginning, I'm new.And you're feeling when you spoke to others last weekyou felt some of them had more experience than you,although you are all still finishing your training course.Some of them have had been in other jobs and things there.So what you're [INAUDIBLE] to the group is [INAUDIBLE]I want to learn, but I need to be treated gently.

    • 20:13

      LYNDA MIZEN: Yeah.And I think it's about will we have some space?Because it feels a bit exposing in a group.And when we've had feedback will we then have some space justto reflect on that?

    • 20:25

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: That's what you'd like?

    • 20:26

      LYNDA MIZEN: Yes.

    • 20:26

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: A specific placeto write it down perhaps then?

    • 20:29

      LYNDA MIZEN: Write it down, or justactually to reflect on it in the moment and--

    • 20:33

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Yes.So ask for it?

    • 20:35

      LYNDA MIZEN: Yeah.

    • 20:36

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Yes.So this is [INAUDIBLE].We're going to go on to actually make the working agreement.So those might be some of the thingsyou want to put in the working agreement.

    • 20:44

      NORMA JAMES: Yes.I think what we were talking about as well,and it sort of fits in to what Tess was saying, was somethingaround trust because it might feel difficult to talkabout a mistake.Yeah.

    • 21:04

      NORMA JAMES [continued]: I think it's a bit of a fear about being criticized.

    • 21:07


    • 21:08

      NORMA JAMES: But also a fear that if I give feedback,it's going to be wrong.And I'm going to look a bit silly or whatever. [INAUDIBLE].It's finding the right way.

    • 21:21

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Finding the right way.Well, some of the things we will be doing,some of the sort of what we call experiential exercises,they will help you onto how you give feedback to each otherand how you do that.So that will come, but these are the anxious things when westart in a group, aren't they?

    • 21:42

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP [continued]: It's exposing.

    • 21:45

      MIKE SIMMONS: OK.So people are asking a lot of questions, their concerns theyhave around how the different approaches will be treatedwithin the supervision group, around confidentiality,and then they're starting to get a gripof the different roles that will be expected of them

    • 22:06

      MIKE SIMMONS [continued]: in this group.And that seems quite a challenge in a way.

    • 22:13

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Well, I think it is because on the wholeit's our experience that people seem to just set groups up.And the hadn't identified the factthat you're asking very complex thingswith people in the group you're asking them to be a good group.You're asking them to be co-workers, as it were,"cow" workers.And you're asking them to be a supervisee,

    • 22:37

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: but to be it publicly alongside other people.And you're also aspiring to help them become co-supervisorsat quite an early stage of their,not co-supervisors carrying all responsibility for supervision,but the actual facilitative part of supervision.

    • 22:58

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: You're asking them to come co-supervisors.

    • 23:00

      MIKE SIMMONS: And I would think probablystimulating the internal supervisor.

    • 23:05

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Absolutely.Yes.

    • 23:08

      MIKE SIMMONS: And we're also getting a sensethat for some people this is more challengingthan it is for others.We see one of the supervisees essentially saying,be nice to me.And that's quite an interesting thing.

    • 23:23


    • 23:24

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Yes.It's something that isn't always made explicit enoughthe people can say that.And we think that's really important there,that people are given the opportunityto ask for what they want.And a lot of people find feedback, which

    • 23:44

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP [continued]: may be critical, hard to take.But not everybody can say.In particularly if they feel they're notas experienced as other people.

    • 23:54

      MIKE SIMMONS: What if I was to put to you the kind of counterargument here that if someone is saying, be nice to me,they're also saying, don't challenge me?Let me get off without it being too difficult for me?

    • 24:13

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Well, yes, certainly.But they'll be wanting that whether they say it or not.If they say at least you know it.Then you can work with it.So that's the first thing I would say to that.The second thing I would say is it is my experiencethat when people are given permissionto do something self protective, rather than what I would call,

    • 24:34

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: which is often called defensive, I would call it properlyself protective in a group you knownothing about of people you don't know if you can trustor not.People are getting to be self protective anyway.If you're given permission to be properly selfprotective people seem to take permissionnot to have to use that self protection so much.

    • 24:54

      MIKE SIMMONS: It's interesting that the very termdefenses always seems to have a negative connotation,but actually if we're in a strange environment,we feel unsafe.Being defensive seems to be a pretty sensible thing.

    • 25:09

      BRIGID PROCTOR: And especially in a group.I mean, say, especially if you bring certain selfprotectiveness to a one to one, but kind of an even more wearyself protectiveness to a group because it's so much moredifficult to know where the unexpected maycome from that gets underneath your protectiveness.

    • 25:26

      MIKE SIMMONS: Right.I'm just thinking about, is everyone in the groupalways going to be on task, or are theysometimes going to be having a bit of a dig out there, yes?

    • 25:37


    • 25:38

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: I think it's, I'm talking about challenge,I think it is also a challenge to say that I need this,that people can speak out and say, I need to protect myself.That really is part of the challenge.And if they can do that they are ready for a gentle challenge.

    • 25:55

      MIKE SIMMONS: Right.I feel vulnerable.That statement is challenging.

    • 26:01


    • 26:03

      MIKE SIMMONS: OK.Let's see some more.

    • 26:05

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: OK.So, Brigid, would you like to take over then and dothe actual working agreement?

    • 26:11

      BRIGID PROCTOR: So, all right.It feels to me a little bit of a fraud because in a wayI've given you a whole lot of ground rules.And then said, OK, you make a working agreement.Well, clearly you don't.I mean, we make an agreement of how we want to work together.And that is a very personal bit of the agreement,

    • 26:32

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: but of course it isn't all the agreement.And I thought I'd give you a little teachy bit.I'm going to move the cups and things a bit here.Bottles down so you can all see.And I've got these Russian dolls.

    • 26:55

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: And the first thing we need to be really clear aboutis we are in a much wider agreement.We're in a big agreement with the wholeof the counseling profession, really,psychotherapy profession.As this happens, all of you are BACP

    • 27:17

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: members and all your agency as a BACP organization member.So there are certain professional obligationswe work within and codified mainly by the code of ethics,or at least the framework.I should say the framework for good practice,ethical practice.

    • 27:38

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: And in a way that's the big doll.And it also, I suppose, in fact, somebody told me the other daymaybe you'd like that, but that'sthe professional one, but this one, as Charlotte [INAUDIBLE]said, this one is the contract we'reall in with each other as citizensand even with universe.It's the kind of widest contract within which we live.

    • 28:01

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: And we would expect each other to berespecting that whatever else, even the professional contract.We might feel now as individuals and people, and membersof human beings.It's something that we want to challengewithin this professional contract.

    • 28:21

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: But we do it only with a lot of thought.And only because that's in here and that'sthe prior contract we're in the minute we're born really.So that's one.So any questions about that one?Can anyone think of anything thatmight go outside our professional contract?

    • 28:46

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: I don't think I can actually.I think the professional contracting incorporatesmost of it, but there may be something.It's worth thinking about.So our professional contract, or code of ethics.What do you think, not the formal things, but informallydo you think we require of each other because of that?

    • 29:10

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: What it boils down to, what are the thingsthat it boils down to?

    • 29:14

      LYNDA MIZEN: Do you mean kind of standards and policiesin the agency?

    • 29:17

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Yes.Certainly part.Although the agency one maybe is inside it.

    • 29:22

      LYNDA MIZEN: Right, but it will have been drivenby the ethical framework.

    • 29:25

      BRIGID PROCTOR: That's right.That's right.And all those simple things about principlesand values and things.What things particularly important to youcharacterize this [INAUDIBLE]?

    • 29:37

      LYNDA MIZEN: I think the honest and trust.

    • 29:39

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Honesty and trust.All right.

    • 29:41

      TESS BROOKS SHEPPARD: Commitment.

    • 29:42

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Commitment.All right.

    • 29:44

      JULIE JONES: Respect.

    • 29:45

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Respect.Yeah.

    • 29:48

      NORMA JAMES: [INAUDIBLE] confidential.

    • 29:50

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Confidentiality.

    • 29:51

      NORMA JAMES: Yeah.

    • 29:53

      JULIE JONES: Yes.Integrity.

    • 29:56

      BRIGID PROCTOR: And it may be that the agency or the coursecontracts that we're in [INAUDIBLE] the next level.We might feel is in disagreement with those things.And then this group would be a very appropriate wayto have over that issue because youdon't go against that without having thought about it very

    • 30:19

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: carefully.So we would need, for a group, if thereare issues in the course, or in the agency that youfeel are not properly ethical.I would like you to feel permission to bring it hereso we can look at what you--

    • 30:36

      MIKE SIMMONS: This seems like a really nice demonstrationwith the dolls.You're presenting quite a series of complicated conceptsin a rather straightforward way by using that imagery.

    • 30:51

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Yes.I think people do remember much better if they'vegot a visual aid.They seem to, those rather complicated things.And all it's saying is that the big doll,which is the widest professional contract possible,which takes into account the code of ethics and so on.

    • 31:13

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: Then within that there are the specific contract,which individuals and the group are in with their agenciesand with their training courses.And then within that is the contractwe set up together as a group that takes intoaccount the ground rules and what people wantand how they like to work.

    • 31:35

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: And underneath that there are individual contracts thathave to fit inside all those contracts like the doll fourtimes down, which each bit of individual workon individual supervision with an individual client done

    • 31:57

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: with an individual supervisee in the groupis also, to some extent, contracted for time especially.And also if maybe for the way the personwants to work and so on.And then at the very heart of those dollsis a little tiny one which is the client, which you

    • 32:20

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: say is the heart of the matter.But all these things can get in the way and seem complications.But they're all, there really to protectthe space for that little client so theyget good time and attention in this supervision group.

    • 32:36

      MIKE SIMMONS: So all this machinery almost.

    • 32:39


    • 32:40

      MIKE SIMMONS: Is whirling around and rightin the center there is the client, the reason whywe're here.

    • 32:47

      BRIGID PROCTOR: That's right.

    • 32:48

      MIKE SIMMONS: OK.Let's look at it a bit more.

    • 32:50

      BRIGID PROCTOR: So this is the agency contract.You're all in an agency contract.And you're also in a contract with your courses.So what is it that the agency lays down?I mean, it pays me, for instance.And it lays down for the supervisionthat I am responsible, not for your clients,but I'm responsible for you having discussed the clients

    • 33:14

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: and for having told anyone if I'm nothappy about the way you're working, that I'vediscussed that with you first.I mean, your agency lays it down very neatly discussing with youfirst.If I'm not satisfied I have to let the manager know thatin the interest of clients.So that's for me.

    • 33:36

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: And also they have said that each of youhave to bring a client every week.If you have a client at the time you have to bring them.We can talk amongst ourselves whatwe do if somebody doesn't have a client on weekor really hasn't got anything they want to bring.We can make up our own rules about that,but it isn't for us to say whether or not

    • 33:57

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: you present every week.So is there anything else about the contractwe're in with the agency that youthink we ought to remind ourselves of as we'remaking this working agreement?

    • 34:11

      NORMA JAMES: Just to say I've got a housesupervision at college as well on the course.

    • 34:15

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Right.So is there some question about whatyou bring here with-- do have a placement anywhere else?I can't remember.

    • 34:26

      NORMA JAMES: Yes, I do.

    • 34:27

      BRIGID PROCTOR: You do.So you could.And do you have supervision in that placement?

    • 34:30

      NORMA JAMES: Yes.

    • 34:31

      BRIGID PROCTOR: So it is a problem about whatyou bring to each place.How do you think you'll manage that?

    • 34:42

      NORMA JAMES: I think I might haveto bring the same client to

    • 34:46

      BRIGID PROCTOR: To both places?

    • 34:47

      NORMA JAMES: To both places.But I think that would be helpful anywayto get a better and a deeper understanding of whatI'm doing.We all come from different perspectives.

    • 34:59

      BRIGID PROCTOR: I was going to say that that'sthe difference, isn't it?

    • 35:02

      NORMA JAMES: Yes.

    • 35:02

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Yes, that there youwill get the person centered perspective on it.

    • 35:06

      NORMA JAMES: Yes.

    • 35:07

      BRIGID PROCTOR: And here you're goingto get several other perspectives as well.

    • 35:11

      NORMA JAMES: Yes.

    • 35:11

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Yes.And it will have to be your responsibility howyou manage because in the end you'rethe person with the client.

    • 35:21

      NORMA JAMES: Yes.

    • 35:22

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Do other people have that arrangementas well, that they also have supervision on the courseas well as--

    • 35:29

      LYNDA MIZEN: We have case managementso, it's not quite the same.

    • 35:32

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Bit different.

    • 35:33

      LYNDA MIZEN: But I'm sort of wonderingabout if we have to do casework, do a case study,and I'm wondering about having super--we have to have supervision whilst we're doing that.

    • 35:44

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Right.

    • 35:45

      LYNDA MIZEN: And a supervised report.And I'm just wondering will you be able to do that.

    • 35:50

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Yes.So you're asking me to be the special supervisor for doingyour case study clearly.

    • 35:57

      LYNDA MIZEN: Yeah.

    • 35:58

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Well, I mean, within the group, again,it will have to be me with the participation of the groupbecause I don't have a remit to be your individual supervisoras well.

    • 36:09


    • 36:10

      BRIGID PROCTOR: So I don't know how your course manages thatusually.

    • 36:14

      LYNDA MIZEN: I think I'll need to check that outwith them on the agency, sort of how they'll feelabout me doing some case work.

    • 36:20

      BRIGID PROCTOR: I think so.Yes.[INAUDIBLE]So I think, I mean, when we thinkof the special things we want to say about our working agreementI'm realizing that what I'd like to put inis that you take responsibility for thinking about howyour client's best served, not your agency or the course,

    • 36:41

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: but how the client will be best served by the supervision casemanagement that you get.And that we are aware of that as a group.And don't let the person just struggle with it on their own,but check every now and again maybe with you.Is it being difficult?Is it being conflicting?

    • 37:01

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: Is it making more trouble for you than help?In which case, to give you space tothink how you could deal with it better.

    • 37:09

      MIKE SIMMONS: So they're are also talking about coursesthat they're on.And trying to square up in the midst of all thisthe demands of the agency and the demands of the course.That feels a quite challenging business.

    • 37:23

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: I think it's sometimes forgotten.And we find that things that go wrong in supervisionare nearly always because this original agreement hasn't beenworked through, and it is quite tedious to work it through,some of it to see this.But it is really important that we allknow what are the demands and the responsibilities of us

    • 37:44

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP [continued]: from around there.

    • 37:46

      MIKE SIMMONS: I'm reminded of various thingsI've been at where health and safety has been a big issue.When we have students for their first week with uswe talk about health and safety issuesand they're incredibly tedious, but also incredibly vitalin the way we're talking about health and safety here as well.

    • 38:05


    • 38:06


    • 38:07

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Yes.Exactly that.

    • 38:09

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: And I think although the main purposeof supervision is the protection of the client the other purposeis the development and the physical, mental, emotional,spiritual health of the supervisees,the joint monitoring of that.So that's the health, as you say, the importance of this--

    • 38:29


    • 38:30

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Within all this complex.

    • 38:32

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Yes.That's why I talk about agreements as friendsbecause to me they have always been tedious,but I have come to realize that it is about health and safety.It's a very nice way of putting it.

    • 38:46

      MIKE SIMMONS: OK.Let's see some more.

    • 38:49

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Do your courses have any special requirementof the supervision?I mean, the agency requires that you write a statementand that the group helps you do that about whereyou've got to report back.Do the courses have anything other than that?

    • 39:08

      LYNDA MIZEN: You have to attend and have one and a half hoursof supervision.

    • 39:14

      BRIGID PROCTOR: So we take care of that.

    • 39:16

      LYNDA MIZEN: Yes.Well, I'm not sure.How do we split the time as a group because?

    • 39:22

      BRIGID PROCTOR: You mean individualshave to one and half hours?

    • 39:24

      LYNDA MIZEN: Yes.

    • 39:25

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Because you've allbeen having an hour of your own, haven't you?Individual supervision.Well, what it means is five of youhave to bring a client each time.

    • 39:36

      LYNDA MIZEN: Right.

    • 39:37

      BRIGID PROCTOR: So it sounds as if,and when we, again when we think about the timingfor our particular group, we may needto think about what that means and whether youare prepared to vary that.So think about that now.Talk about it again in a few minutes whether youwant to say, now I want my time because I'vegot to have my hour and a half, or whether you negotiate

    • 40:01

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: with the course that since it is a group in your agency,that-- I mean that's what the BACP does.It doesn't allow you the whole hour and a half.It just allows you a bigger proportion than your own share.So that's one of the things that we're going to have to sort ourand you probably needs the cooperation of your courses

    • 40:21

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: to do that.Make sense or not?

    • 40:24

      LYNDA MIZEN: Yes, it makes sense.

    • 40:25

      BRIGID PROCTOR: You're looking a bit [INAUDIBLE].

    • 40:26

      LYNDA MIZEN: Well, I was trying to just work it through.

    • 40:28

      BRIGID PROCTOR: How it would work out.

    • 40:30

      LYNDA MIZEN: Because we have 100 hours of being supervised.

    • 40:33

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Right.

    • 40:34

      LYNDA MIZEN: So I was just tryingto do the mental arithmetic [INAUDIBLE].

    • 40:36

      BRIGID PROCTOR: I think the course has some responsibilityfor noticing that you get the benefit of groupsupervision, which in a way gives youfar more access to client work and other people'sways of working.And I think they have some responsibility for checkingwhat they count that as.I don't think you have to do the sums.

    • 40:57

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: I think you need to ask them.And if necessary say, I think although I onlyhave my 20 minutes, it feels like much longer.Do other people have group supervision?Could we negotiate that half the timeis counted as supervision time?

    • 41:16

      LYNDA MIZEN: And helpful.

    • 41:17

      BRIGID PROCTOR: So interesting, isn't it?What this brings up is all the existential issues whichis, will I get enough time?Will I have too much time?Will it fit in with other people?I mean, those are the things that youhave to legislate for in a way.And another way we have to make our personal accommodationwith.

    • 41:38

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: So everything we discuss in thesewill bring up that kind of issue.Will it be too harsh?Will they be honest enough with me?Will they be too harsh with me?All those things.They're all life issues.And this group will reflect them all.So I think that's enough about reminding you that we only

    • 42:01

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: have certain leeway.Other bigger dolls lay down some things,but we have a bit of leeway about what wewant from our group, and that's this doll.And I'll come back to that one because we alsohave leeway within that, what we decide we want from each other.

    • 42:21

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: We have a bit of leeway week by week of whatwe want to bring up that day.That's the agenda for the day.More so within that.And this bit is a little bit of each one of you doingyour individual bit of work.And that has to be within all the other dolls.But within that you have quite a bit of leeway.And you'll be able to say what you want.

    • 42:44

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: And we'll be asked what you want from that bit of work.It isn't just pushed on you.So that's that.So this is the one we're concerned with now.And we'll never get the rules completely right.What we need is in order to be able to go on and dosome supervision today is what is basically do we need to know

    • 43:09

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: is in our working agreement together.And it comes back to what you weresaying to Francesca earlier.What are the particular things you want people to notice,that you want to get good supervision?And where did we start with those?Funny, what I can remember most of all,

    • 43:31

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: I notice when I think back is you-- or Francesca picking upon what you were saying, you somehow felt the newer personin the group.And you really wanted some sort of assurancethat you wouldn't be mauled.

    • 43:46


    • 43:50

      BRIGID PROCTOR: So if we take up the ground rulesit's both as group member and as co-supervisors.It comes under both those, doesn't it?

    • 44:11

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: We all need to have good group manners.So it doesn't mean saying our please and thank yous.But it's like, what do we want from each other very generallyto feel that this is a good mannered well working group.

    • 44:29

      JULIE JONES: Maybe that we get a good balance between positiveand maybe some positive feedback.

    • 44:35

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Right.

    • 44:36

      JULIE JONES: But if there is a feedback that perhaps,that it's constructive feedback.And that we do, as we say, we balanced perhaps someof the things that perhaps need workingwith along with some very positive aspects.

    • 44:53

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Right.As you were saying it, I was wondering,I saw you got a pen and paper.Can I ask you just to make a note.Are you OK as a scribe or is it something you find tedious?

    • 45:04

      JULIA MARTIN: No, no.

    • 45:05

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Oh.Well, if you could just make a note of what individuals say.So then over the time we can work itinto a proper arrangement.So can somebody playback what Juliesaid so you get it accurate?

    • 45:19

      TESS BROOKS-SHEPPARD: Julie said that it would be really helpfulif we could have sort of positive with maybeaspects of our work that we need to work on.

    • 45:29

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Does that seem?

    • 45:31

      JULIE JONES: Yes.That it's constructive, but that there is always,that we got some positive elements in there.So that it doesn't feel as thoughthat you're being criticized, I suppose ultimately.

    • 45:43

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Right.Yes.They had constructive rather than critical.

    • 45:47

      JULIE JONES: Yeah.

    • 45:50

      BRIGID PROCTOR: So what else do we want for good group manners?

    • 45:52

      NORMA JAMES: I'd like, I think, somebodyto notice if I'm finding a little bit of a struggle.

    • 46:03

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Right.

    • 46:04

      NORMA JAMES: Yes.[INAUDIBLE] shyness or I can't [INAUDIBLE] or whatever.Just to notice.[INAUDIBLE]

    • 46:15

      BRIGID PROCTOR: So some recognitionof need for support?

    • 46:20

      NORMA JAMES: Yes.

    • 46:20

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Not necessarily being supportive.

    • 46:23

      NORMA JAMES: No.

    • 46:24

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Though you might want somebody to be.[INAUDIBLE].If they noticed they might want to offer some support.

    • 46:31

      NORMA JAMES: Yes.

    • 46:31

      BRIGID PROCTOR: And that's OK.

    • 46:32

      NORMA JAMES: Yes.

    • 46:33

      BRIGID PROCTOR: But, I mean, one doesn't want supportyou don't want either, do you?That's why you sound like you're very tentative.One does want support.One doesn't want rescue.

    • 46:42

      NORMA JAMES: No, I don't think I want to be rescued.But, yeah.Just perhaps in a larger group I mightfind it difficult to say what I want to say.Yeah.And it would be useful for me for somebody to noticethat because I could just use that and sit back.

    • 47:07

      BRIGID PROCTOR: So if you're sending those signalsyou'd like someone to signal back as well.

    • 47:13

      NORMA JAMES: Yes.

    • 47:14

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Not to do it for you, but to signal back.

    • 47:16

      NORMA JAMES: That's it.Yes.

    • 47:20


    • 47:22

      LYNDA MIZEN: I think I'd like just to be heard.Just an acknowledgement of what I've said.I know sometimes things can get very busyand I sometimes don't express myself very clearly.I just want to be heard and have it put back to meto so I can actually clarify it.Is my understanding of the situation right?

    • 47:43

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Right.So you not only want to be heard, but you also in a waywant to hear back.

    • 47:49

      LYNDA MIZEN: Yeah.Just because I think I sometimes know what I'm saying,but sometimes it's apparent that other people don't.

    • 47:57

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Right.So you want them to help you clarify what you're saying.

    • 48:02

      LYNDA MIZEN: Yeah.

    • 48:02

      BRIGID PROCTOR: As well.And through the clarifying to hear that you have been heard.

    • 48:09

      LYNDA MIZEN: Yeah.And I think in that it sometimes helps me.When I feel a bit muddles it willhelp me unravel that muddle.[INAUDIBLE] and it all comes out.And I need it to come back.

    • 48:25

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Anything particularlyyou noticed you want?

    • 48:30

      JULIA MARTIN: I had mentioned earlierabout the responsibility, but I thinkthat was dealt with because you said that you actuallyremain in control.

    • 48:38

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Well, put it down neverthe less that you want, so, frame that as what you want,really.

    • 48:45

      JULIA MARTIN: I want to feel safe within the structure,I suppose.

    • 48:48

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Right.So stick that one down.And I'll reiterate what Francesca said.It is ultimately, although I'm asking you to be co-supervisorsbecause I think that's something you,I don't know if you value it now,but you will one day later on.And I can be pretty certain.

    • 49:09

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: You will value having had that opportunity.It remains my responsibility or Francesca'swhen she's working to make sure that you're client is wellserved in this group because at the bottom of allthese little dollies,

    • 49:28


    • 49:33

      BRIGID PROCTOR: It's that little one.And that is the heart of the matter.It is the heart of the matter.And that is that you're doing good work with your clientand your clients are well served.All this, all these dolls are actually about that.And it's my responsibility, and I'masking you to share it with me, for seeing

    • 49:56

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: that good supervision work is done, not for you ultimately.It is for you, of course, as well.But it isn't a personal development or evena professional development opportunity for you primarily.Primarily about seeing that the clients are gettingthe service that they deserve.And along the line Francesca and I

    • 50:19

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: think the client is best served by you being well,feeling that it's a development opportunity and so on,in the service of getting good work done.

    • 50:30

      NORMA JAMES: I like that.I like the phrase that you used, the heart of the matter.

    • 50:35

      BRIGID PROCTOR: The heart of the matter.

    • 50:36

      NORMA JAMES: Yes.

    • 50:37

      BRIGID PROCTOR: It's easy to forget in the groupbecause there's so much happening.

    • 50:41

      NORMA JAMES: Yes.

    • 50:42

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: I think you're alsoasking for whichever one of us is running the groupto hold the structure.

    • 50:48

      JULIA MARTIN: Yes, that's right.

    • 50:49

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Yes.So that because you can't get to the heart of the matterunless there is a structure held.And we will be responsible for that.

    • 50:58

      JULIA MARTIN: Thank you.

    • 50:59

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Which reminds me looking at time.So we don't have much more time to talk about this,but is there anything, going back again to these groundrules, Francesca asked you if there'sanything you didn't understand.And you seemed to understand those roles.Do they feel very heavy?Does it feel heavy to have to manage all that?

    • 51:21

      LYNDA MIZEN: I think when you look at it, it does initially,but I think when you begin to take it apart it's manageable.

    • 51:28

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Right.Well, I think I'd like to leave it there.We've got some notes down.We've thought about the management of time's goingto be difficult.And I think we need to play it by ear for a week or two,and then decide whether we can afford to be

    • 51:50

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: flexible with time, or not.I think we want to know that until we'vemoved into the territory and moved about in it a bit.So I'd like to suggest that.Would you agree with that?You each get equal time for the first couple of weeksand then we have a review.And we go back to these things and seeif people are getting what they want

    • 52:11

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: or have other things to add.And we get back to this and decideif there's anything we want put in there,or altered, or taken out.Because I think it's too early to say that.It's when you're actually practicing and get some idea.OK?And is there anything that would stop you feeling safe enough

    • 52:33

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: and clear enough going on to do supervision work now?

    • 52:41


    • 52:45

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Ready to work?

    • 52:47

      JULIE JONES: I quite like the idea.I feel, already, quite supported here.And that's quite a nice feeling.

    • 52:54

      NORMA JAMES: Yes.

    • 52:55


    • 52:56

      NORMA JAMES: Yes.And I've already been able to say what I need as well.So that's been important.

    • 53:04

      BRIGID PROCTOR: You feel free to do that?

    • 53:06

      NORMA JAMES: Yes.

    • 53:07


    • 53:07

      MIKE SIMMONS: There's quite a lot going on here.There's a lot of concerns, a lot of expectations.Everyone's working out quite whatthe deal is, what the deal is in this group,what the deal is as far as the profession's concerned.And I noticed you were actually asking one of the group membersto take the notes for all this.

    • 53:27

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Yes.Well, I think we think it's very useful along the lineto take various tasks, functions that need to happen.And not take responsibility for doing all that.I mean, a practical level, you can't very easily do that.It distracts from the other roles of the supervisor

    • 53:49

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: in a group like this.But it also immediately shows that this is co-responsibility.And a scribe role and a time keeper roleare two that it's very useful to delegate.And people really like to take on very often.It also allows people, I mean, such a lotis said in that if something isn't written down

    • 54:11

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: about individual needs, what individualswant from the group at that stage in the exploration,then it'll go.We'll forget it.So it's quite important to get it down and sopeople can be reminded about that and have a sheet of paper.

    • 54:27

      MIKE SIMMONS: It's quite empowering.

    • 54:29


    • 54:30

      MIKE SIMMONS: What would you do?Would you get that person to type up the notes,photo-copy them?

    • 54:35

      BRIGID PROCTOR: I would check if they would be interested,would be happy to do that.If they say, oh, I don't have a photocopieror I don't have a scanner, I say,OK, I'll get it done for you, or generally somebody else mightvolunteer and say I'll do it.The more you can get people volunteering to do it,but I would never put it on them at this stage of the group.

    • 54:56

      MIKE SIMMONS: And I suppose coming to my headis this is our group, rather than your group.

    • 55:01

      BRIGID PROCTOR: That's right.

    • 55:02

      MIKE SIMMONS: [INAUDIBLE].We're kind of actually running through this opening stagecomparatively quickly.It feels like it's very importantto get this foundation right before anything else happens.

    • 55:16

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: I think it is.And it's hard sometimes at the beginning when peopleare more anxious about bringing their clients and coming,but to really get to this sorted at the beginning,and to help people particularly to recognizethe different roles that they're going to be in as a supervisee

    • 55:36

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP [continued]: and to see.Because I think to make it explicit that they are not onlygoing to be a supervisee presenting and bringingtheir work, but also that they'regoing to be helping other people,commenting on other people's work.And so that they've got that role as well of co-supervisee

    • 55:58

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP [continued]: in doing this in this particular group there.

    • 56:03

      MIKE SIMMONS: And it's not just the superviseesthat have roles in this group.They are also, in this occasion, two supervisorsand they have a role as well.

    • 56:11


    • 56:12

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Yeah.I mean, that wouldn't be a typical group.That was a device for television.And for us as co-workers taking it in turns.I don't think we've ever run a supervision group together,have we?

    • 56:24

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Oh, no.Only in training.

    • 56:26

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Courses and trainings,but we've never run a group together.

    • 56:28

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: But not actually doing the group.Yes.

    • 56:32

      BRIGID PROCTOR: And it is as complex for a supervisoras it is for a supervisee to run a group like this.

    • 56:37

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Yes.Because a supervisor has all these roles of supervisor,group facilitator, structuring the group,and maintaining the group maintenance there.And teaching.

    • 56:53

      BRIGID PROCTOR: And teaching, very much at the beginning.

    • 56:54

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: In this sort of groupteaching the supervisees how they are goingto co-supervise each other.

    • 57:03

      MIKE SIMMONS: Yes.A more complex task in many ways.I mean, I think the other thing we've alreadytalked about the fact that this is a role play,and it's for the most part, the roles are being playedby very experienced counselors, some of whomare supervisors in fact.They know the business.They know the deal.But actually, it feels like it's just

    • 57:25

      MIKE SIMMONS [continued]: as important for this group of experienced counselorsto give it this time, this attention as itwould be for a group of inexperienced counselors.

    • 57:35

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Absolutely.I mean, you might almost say more so because people tendto make assumptions about practicing counselors A,at their competence at being in a group,and B, about their skills at listeningand not competing with other people.And of course, people have more to lose

    • 57:57

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: as they get more experienced.So to create an atmosphere where it's OK to make mistakes,where we don't judge others, or be compared, beover-competitive, of course, we'llbe competitive, but over-competitiveto the point of not being useful for the client,is as important as for new people.The tensions will be different, but the need

    • 58:20

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: to make explicit what will for making a groupwork well for the point of the client and the members of it.It's just as important.

    • 58:29

      MIKE SIMMONS: And I guess they alsocome with previous experience of supervision.

    • 58:33

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: That's what I was going to say.They may have not had experience of beingexplicit in supervision before about [INAUDIBLE]different for some experience counselors.

    • 58:43

      MIKE SIMMONS: Right.The other thing I'm aware of is that they'reworking towards an agreement of how we're going to work.And you're still acknowledging that thiswill be reviewed, that it's not cast in stoneand this is how we're going to work forever.

    • 59:01

      BRIGID PROCTOR: No.I think [INAUDIBLE] says, you may have a map,but you don't know what the territory's like.This is really a map making.And a taster because of the exercises and thingsof how we're going to work.Sending up a balloon of the kind of culture it's going to be,but they won't understand what it

    • 59:22

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: means in terms of supervising and being supervisedfor some time in.

    • 59:28

      MIKE SIMMONS: And we don't know what's going to come up.No one in this group knows what'sgoing to come up that's going to, I guess,challenge that agreement, that willmake you need to be reviewed.

    • 59:39

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: And it does need a supervisorbeing responsible for making space for a review.

    • 59:45

      MIKE SIMMONS: Because I guess sometimesthe client work seems so important.That's why we're here.That can get a bit edged out.Well, actually without it being acknowledged and worked with,the work with the clients isn't going to be as effective.

    • 01:00:00

      BRIGID PROCTOR: That's right.As opposed to a group dynamic group,or a self-developed personal developmentgroup, even a professional development group,the professional development is in the service of the client,rather than in the service of the group members primarily.

    • 01:00:16

      MIKE SIMMONS: Right.

    • 01:00:17

      BRIGID PROCTOR: But getting the group membersto work well together allows the task to be done better.

    • 01:00:25

      MIKE SIMMONS: Right.

    • 01:00:26

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Which isn't the task.

    • 01:00:27

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: And when the review gives you an opportunityto look at how's the maintenance going,how are we getting on together.

    • 01:00:33

      MIKE SIMMONS: Yes.I guess a clear parallel with the counselor, with the client.

    • 01:00:38

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Very much.

    • 01:00:39

      MIKE SIMMONS: How's it going?What are we doing?OK.Let's see some more.

    • 01:00:46

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: OK.Well, we've done the check in today and we've also done,you remember the agenda that we've built.Our agenda today, you brought in what you wantand what you want to present.And you've also asked for 10 minutes at the endto look at the process.So we must remember at the end, who can see the clock?

    • 01:01:06

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP [continued]: Can you see the clock easily?

    • 01:01:07

      JULIA MARTIN: Yes.

    • 01:01:08

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: [INAUDIBLE] so you remind us10 minutes before the end that we'regoing to allow 10 minutes to makesure we have some process time.And I want to do an exercise called the Noddy Jackpot, whichis an exercise to help you listen very carefullyand playback exactly what the person has said.

    • 01:01:30

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP [continued]: Practice in not putting in your ideas or your opinions,or anything but just to hear exactly what the person says.And play it back to them.Just a very brief bit back to them.And Lynda said she's prepared to present her client to do.This is a client.She's like a bit of to help with some confusion,

    • 01:01:53

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP [continued]: to clarify because this is a very good way of clarifyingfor people.Now remember the person presentingis the person doing the work.We don't, as supervisors, have to do the work for them.We have to help them and this is a very good wayof helping somebody else clarify in their mind and do it.So all you have to do is to listen carefully.And in turn I'll ask you to give one phrase

    • 01:02:15

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP [continued]: back to Lynda that was absolutely exactly what shesaid.Don't change it.It's not putting it into your words.It's not paraphrasing.It's just said.And if you get it right Lynda will say yes,which is the Noddy Jackpot.If you're not quite right, she'll go, hmm, maybe.

    • 01:02:36

      LYNDA MIZEN: I feel a huge sense of responsibility now.

    • 01:02:38

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Oh yes.And if it's quite wrong she'll go, there.And you can either have another goor you can ask the person next to youto help you to get it right.If you can't think of anything in the spur of the momentyou can say pass.And we'll have about three of four things of Lynda talkingand then I'll stop her.

    • 01:02:59

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP [continued]: And then ask you to put back there.OK.Is that clear?

    • 01:03:04


    • 01:03:06

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: OK.Lynda, so.

    • 01:03:09

      LYNDA MIZEN: I want to bring a young lady called Jo.She's 21.And she's recently split up with her husband.She has a young child and she's a referral from a GP practice.And has come along to help her manage her anger.We've met on three occasions.

    • 01:03:31

      LYNDA MIZEN [continued]: However, I'll bring her today because she keeps cancelling.

    • 01:03:35

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Stop.Stop at that moment will you?OK.So we have back.Just one thing she said.Who wants to start?

    • 01:03:44

      JULIA MARTIN: I don't mind.You're bringing Jo, who's a young woman, age 21.Who has a young child.

    • 01:03:51


    • 01:03:55

      TESS BROOKS-SHEPPARD: My mind's gone completely blank.

    • 01:03:58

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: OK.Wait until you hear somebody.

    • 01:04:02

      JULIE JONES: Jo is referred through her GP and you havea problem becomes she keeps cancelling.

    • 01:04:12

      NORMA JAMES: I think you said, however,I want to bring her today because she keepson cancelling.

    • 01:04:20

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: One bit is being missed.

    • 01:04:26

      JULIA MARTIN: She wants to deal with her anger?

    • 01:04:29

      LYNDA MIZEN: Yeah.That's right.

    • 01:04:30


    • 01:04:32

      MIKE SIMMONS: So what we understandis you've already built an agenda with this group.They've said what they need from the time.

    • 01:04:39

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Yes.That's, again, a demonstration of howwe think a group should start each timeto remind the importance of the agenda building.

    • 01:04:49

      MIKE SIMMONS: And also their part in determining whathappens.

    • 01:04:54

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: And they're expected to bring somethingfor the agenda.That's the other thing.I think that if it's the agenda they'reexpected that they would have something to contribute.

    • 01:05:02

      MIKE SIMMONS: But in my mind it'ssomething like there aren't any passengers here.We're all part of this thing.OK.And then you set up the first exercise, Noddy Jackpot.

    • 01:05:12

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: I think this isbecause we want to demonstrate that in this participativegroup we want to recognize that people needto learn how to co-supervise.And one of the really important things to learnis how to be able to listen intently and put back

    • 01:05:33

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP [continued]: to the person, so that they recognize the personpresenting is doing the work.And by getting them to concentrateon listening and just putting back what's saidit stops them putting in their own ideas early on.

    • 01:05:50

      MIKE SIMMONS: And a clear model with working with a client,of course.

    • 01:05:53


    • 01:05:54

      MIKE SIMMONS: And they are really listening intently.I mean, it's a very interesting exercise.

    • 01:05:59

      BRIGID PROCTOR: And what we've foundis that with the more experienced counselorsit's a really very difficult task.They have got used to having hunches from the first wordsomeone speaks, first moment the client appears in the story.And they find this task terribly difficult.

    • 01:06:21

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: And it's a very useful thing to do with experienced counselors,even experienced supervisors.

    • 01:06:28

      MIKE SIMMONS: I'm just thinking of supervision groups I'vebeen in in the past where suddenly we're thinking,we've invented this client.We've all gone off on a kind of hair chaseand the actual client's been left behind in some way.I think that's not going to happen with this exercise.

    • 01:06:44


    • 01:06:45

      MIKE SIMMONS: Very focused.

    • 01:06:47

      LYNDA MIZEN: OK.Well, as I say we've met on three occasions,but there's been a long gap in between.And I did as the agency said.Got her name, ran to make an appointment,and at first she didn't want to come on the days.And it just feels messy, that she seemsto put obstacles in the way.

    • 01:07:08

      LYNDA MIZEN [continued]: Didn't want to meet on the first day.Could she come on another day?And then she didn't want to come at all.She was going to someone else.And then finally she came.And when she came she was a bit sort of truculent.She's a bit, sitting there.And I feel, what am I doing here?I feel very stuck with her in the room.

    • 01:07:29

      LYNDA MIZEN [continued]: And I have a sense that I'm working too hardto do something with her.And I don't feel relaxed.

    • 01:07:38


    • 01:07:42

      JULIE JONES: You've seen her on three occasions.And she's-- so you've seen her on three occasions with gapsin between.

    • 01:07:55

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: OK.That'll do.

    • 01:07:58

      NORMA JAMES: You said, I feel very stuck with herin the room.

    • 01:08:07

      TESS BROOKS-SHEPPARD: You said it feels very messy.

    • 01:08:12

      JULIA MARTIN: Described her as truculent.And that she's uncomfortable, messy in the room.

    • 01:08:28

      LYNDA MIZEN: I think it must be me more [INAUDIBLE].

    • 01:08:30


    • 01:08:32

      LYNDA MIZEN: But that's useful.

    • 01:08:33

      MIKE SIMMONS: Right.No one wasn't quite right, was it?

    • 01:08:37

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: When it's not quite rightthat's the time when immediately the counselor was saying,but that helps me clarify.And, of course, that's the same with a client.If you don't get your paraphrase right with a clientthe client will say, hmm, no.But so and so and so and so.

    • 01:08:57

      MIKE SIMMONS: And suddenly both understand a little bit more.

    • 01:09:01

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: And that's Noddy Jackpot.

    • 01:09:03

      MIKE SIMMONS: When I was a kid there was a toy that I neverowned, but kind of vaguely coveted.And it was called something like the little sculptor kit.And quite clearly what it was was a statuemade of a harder material with thenplaster of Paris poured all over it.And your job as a kid was to solely tap away

    • 01:09:26

      MIKE SIMMONS [continued]: the plaster of Paris and reveal the statue inside as if you'rein fact painting by numbers, but it's a statue.But in a way I was kind of remindedof that watching this exercise.There's more and more clarity.We can more and more see what the issueis as the process goes on.

    • 01:09:45

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: And as you get into the center the personfeels more and more vulnerable

    • 01:09:49


    • 01:09:50

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: As you chip them.

    • 01:09:51


    • 01:09:51

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: As she chips the plaster away.

    • 01:09:53

      MIKE SIMMONS: Yes.I guess she's being invited to chip the plaster.

    • 01:09:57

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Yes.Because says at one point I feel a fraud.And at another time she's able to say,I feel uncomfortable in the group now.

    • 01:10:04

      MIKE SIMMONS: Yes.A lot of vulnerability.And the exercise started with Tesssaying she didn't know what to say.And you were just accepting of that.We'll come back later.And now later on she's engaged in the process as well.

    • 01:10:22

      BRIGID PROCTOR: And I think that's acceptance.You often say I've got to try hard to accept.I really think at the beginning of a supervision groupyou need to do dressage and remind,I need to remind myself, we need to remind ourselvesthat acceptance isn't something that you've got to do.

    • 01:10:45

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: Acceptance is what creates the culture thatallows things to happen.Without that the group will be dodging and weaving,but if one can truly remember that every contribution, a mindfreeze or anything else, is it.That's what this is.

    • 01:11:06

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: Then results seem to happen from that.

    • 01:11:10

      MIKE SIMMONS: So I guess you're talkabout unconditional [INAUDIBLE] for regard.

    • 01:11:14

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Absolutely.

    • 01:11:14

      MIKE SIMMONS: Yeah.

    • 01:11:15

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Absolutely.And of course judgment comes in later of competenceand such like that, the normative bits,but at this stage and when you'reusing an experiential exercise acceptance is all.

    • 01:11:29

      MIKE SIMMONS: Right.

    • 01:11:31

      LYNDA MIZEN: When she comes into the room and she sits downI actually feel as if she's testing me.And as I'm talking about it now I feel very, very de-skilledby my work.And I can't seem to think what good work I've done.I just feel that she's, oh, set me up and I feel a fraud now.

    • 01:11:56

      LYNDA MIZEN [continued]: And I feel very embarrassed sharing this with you all.But it's something about what's happeningwhen I reflect things to her.It seems like I'm trying to help and I've made some inroadsand then she'll be saying, oh, but that's not going to work.

    • 01:12:16

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Do you want to start?

    • 01:12:18

      TESS BROOKS-SHEPPARD: You feel very tested by your client.And de-skilled [INAUDIBLE].

    • 01:12:29

      JULIA MARTIN: You said you feel she's setting you up.

    • 01:12:34

      NORMA JAMES: I feel very de-skilled with her.

    • 01:12:36

      LYNDA MIZEN: Yeah.

    • 01:12:37

      JULIE JONES: Yes.You feel set up by her, yeah?Did you say set up?

    • 01:12:43

      LYNDA MIZEN: Yeah.It just doesn't feel real.I think it's because she didn't start in the usual waythat I've known a few clients that I've had.They come along and they've been willing.And this is the first person that I've everexperienced being resistant in terms of not wanting to comeon the day that was meant.

    • 01:13:03

      LYNDA MIZEN [continued]: And then cancelling at short notice.So that [INAUDIBLE] unsettling.And it's possibly something about my own stuffthat I know I need the hours to get my course in.So if she cancels it's another hourthat I can't sort of log off.And I'm wondering if perhaps that gets in the way.

    • 01:13:25

      LYNDA MIZEN [continued]: And we've done silences in sort of skills practiceand I usually feel OK with them, but when she's silentthe silence is quite deafening.And I feel I perhaps want to fill it.

    • 01:13:41


    • 01:13:42

      NORMA JAMES: This is the first client you'vehad that's been so resistant.

    • 01:13:49

      JULIE JONES: Yeah.It didn't start in the usual way that previous clientshad started.

    • 01:13:56

      LYNDA MIZEN: Yeah.

    • 01:13:59

      TESS BROOKS-SHEPPARD: You felt really unsettled by this.

    • 01:14:03

      JULIA MARTIN: Her silence is deafening.

    • 01:14:04

      LYNDA MIZEN: Yeah.

    • 01:14:06

      NORMA JAMES: It feels so unreal.

    • 01:14:11

      JULIE JONES: You're normally very good with silence,comfortable with silence.With this client it's quite deafening.

    • 01:14:27

      NORMA JAMES: There's a clash.No, I'm not using your words now.Sorry.I know-- yeah.

    • 01:14:41

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Somebody help her.

    • 01:14:42

      TESS BROOKS-SHEPPARD: Confusion?You said, I think, I wonder if it's my stuff because Ineed the hours for my course.

    • 01:14:53

      LYNDA MIZEN: It's about I need to have so many hoursof surprised to get my course.And it's heading towards that timewhen each client is very precious.And even though I didn't say clashI think when Norma said clash, I thinkthere is a clash between what I want for the session

    • 01:15:15

      LYNDA MIZEN [continued]: and what she wants.And perhaps because it's my first experience of someonebeing resistant and me feeling de-skilled,I'm not thinking of the little person in the front there.I'm thinking more about up here in termsof what I need for my course.[INAUDIBLE]

    • 01:15:38

      NORMA JAMES: I'm not thinking of the little person.You're thinking about what you need from the course.

    • 01:15:45


    • 01:15:48

      TESS BROOKS SHEPPARD: [INAUDIBLE] right wordwhen you said it.

    • 01:15:57


    • 01:16:02

      LYNDA MIZEN: I feel uncomfortable sittingin the group now, but I'm beginningto realize that I'm perhaps really thinking of my needsmore.So when you said that, Julie, yes,it feels a bit uncomfortable.

    • 01:16:23

      LYNDA MIZEN [continued]: But perhaps she's been resistant because I haven'tengaged with her, although there's stillthat piece of confusion.And I perhaps want the help to sort it out.

    • 01:16:38

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: So can we have last bit back.

    • 01:16:41

      JULIE JONES: It feels uncomfortablesitting in the group right now because I thinkI've been looking for my needs.

    • 01:16:52

      NORMA JAMES: Do you think you've been resistant because you'vebeen confused by the needs.

    • 01:17:00

      LYNDA MIZEN: Maybe.

    • 01:17:02

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Not quite correct.Nearly. [INAUDIBLE].

    • 01:17:08

      NORMA JAMES: Halfway there.

    • 01:17:10

      JULIA MARTIN: [INAUDIBLE] perhaps a few times.Perhaps it's because I felt a clashand perhaps it's because I haven'tengaged with her as much.

    • 01:17:26

      LYNDA MIZEN: It feels like it's evolvingas I'm speaking sitting here now,that I'm getting some insight.And it's perhaps been that I've beenresistant to her resistance.Yeah.And what I'm saying, perhaps, is because I'mthinking of it tentatively and I keep sort of flipping back

    • 01:17:46

      LYNDA MIZEN [continued]: to the last times we've met.And just trying to go through the workthat I've done with her.

    • 01:17:52

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Good.That seems a really good place to stop, Lynda.In that from the simple, just beingput what you're saying you've managed to work on thatand sort some of your confusion perhaps.You're being very brave in saying negative thingsabout yourself, but beginning to work out why that's happening.

    • 01:18:16

      LYNDA MIZEN: Yeah.I think when I was sitting here it was beginningto feel uncomfortable, however, having done the exerciseand that it's not quite so scary.So thank you.

    • 01:18:28

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Good.Yes.So you've got something you want to go back to that client with.

    • 01:18:33

      LYNDA MIZEN: Yes.I've got something further the work on to [INAUDIBLE]before we next meet.Thank you.

    • 01:18:40

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Can I suggest something?Wonder if you could just ask them to do oneround telling one thing they [INAUDIBLE].

    • 01:18:51

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Would you like to do one round,so tell Lynda something you've admiredabout the way she's done it?One thing from each.

    • 01:18:60

      NORMA JAMES: I really admired the wayyou sat with the discomfort as it was becomingmore comfortable for you.You stayed with it.

    • 01:19:09

      JULIE JONES: I admire you for actually saying, I'll go first.[LAUGHTER]

    • 01:19:15

      LYNDA MIZEN: [INAUDIBLE] that's because Ijumped my feet in the water first [INAUDIBLE] talking.

    • 01:19:21

      TESS BROOKS-SHEPPARD: I really appreciatedthe honestly and you willingness to kind of explore it openly.

    • 01:19:28

      JULIA MARTIN: So I think it's the same for me really.Yes.The trust that you've put in the group at such an early stagereally is [INAUDIBLE].

    • 01:19:39

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Good.Any comment to finish now, Lynda?

    • 01:19:43

      LYNDA MIZEN: I think I just need a little moment justto sit and come down from that [INAUDIBLE].

    • 01:19:47

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Just sit and come down from that.Just sit and think about it.Good.Thank you very much for being the first to be brave enoughto present.

    • 01:19:55

      MIKE SIMMONS: And you ended the exerciseby inviting them all to give Lynda some form of affirmation.

    • 01:20:02

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Yes.It seemed important particularly at that pointbecause Lynda obviously had made herself very vulnerable.

    • 01:20:07

      MIKE SIMMONS: Right.

    • 01:20:08

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Really.And felt vulnerable in it, but you could see the differencewhen she had the affirmation.

    • 01:20:13

      MIKE SIMMONS: Yes.So it was a response to what was goingon in the room at the time.

    • 01:20:17

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Yes.Because it could be a good point anyway to do,at the end of an exercise to do that.

    • 01:20:24

      MIKE SIMMONS: I guess the more itworks as an exercise the more you might want to do that.

    • 01:20:27

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Yes, but of course we're on video as well.So it's even more important.In this I think it makes a person even more vulnerable,doesn't it really?When they know that.

    • 01:20:40

      MIKE SIMMONS: Yeah.OK.

    • 01:20:42

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Even when they're role playing.

    • 01:20:46

      MIKE SIMMONS: Yes.Makes little different, I think.OK.Let's look at the next exercise.

    • 01:20:51

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Shut your eyes.Be in touch with your breathing.And just gently contemplate your clients.And notice any point with them in which you've feltuncomfortable, or confused, or unsure.

    • 01:21:19

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: And decide which client you wouldlike to take some time just took explore that discomfortor uncertainty.And it may be that the clients don'tproduce that in a useful way.And there might be other professional peoplethat you've interacted with that you have something you

    • 01:21:42

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: would like to explore instead.And that's OK because you'll get your supervision in this groupanyway.So think about all the kind of professional interactionsyou've had as well.Just notice, curiosity, puzzlement, confusion, anxiety,

    • 01:22:10

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: dislike.So we're not going to talk about this at this point at all.What we're going to ask you to dois a little exercise in which I'llask you to draw, but something very simple.So if you three would like to take that table,

    • 01:22:31

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: clear it, and get a sheet of paper.Norma, if you could get, I've got some card there for peopleto draw on their on their knees because we've onlygot one table.I think you'll find some crayons there'sas well, a box of crayons.

    • 01:22:45

      NORMA JAMES: Yes.

    • 01:22:46

      BRIGID PROCTOR: And so each take a bit of paper.Now just put it where you can each grab the crayonsas and when you need them.Now I want you each to decide who's A and B.And for you it's decide who's A, B, and C.

    • 01:23:04


    • 01:23:05

      NORMA JAMES: I'll be A then.

    • 01:23:08

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Right.[INAUDIBLE]I want you each now to go back into thinking, contemplatingagain.Think about the issue you decided to explore.And I want you to draw the person who youhave the issue with as a fish.

    • 01:23:30


    • 01:23:31

      BRIGID PROCTOR: As a fish.Now some of you may hate drawing,but actually everyone can draw some kind of fish.You'll find you can.OK?And you have about one and a half minutesto do that very quick.And no talking, absolutely no talking.

    • 01:23:53

      MIKE SIMMONS: As a fish?

    • 01:23:54

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Yes, as a fish.Two things about that, one is that as I say on video,everybody can draw a fish it seems.We've never had anybody who says they can't, even though theymay be quite drawing phobic, as people are from school.Secondly, it accesses what they know out of awareness.

    • 01:24:18

      MIKE SIMMONS: Right.

    • 01:24:18

      BRIGID PROCTOR: And in some way theydidn't know they knew, but by drawing somebodyas a fish, even when they aren't drawing what they wantto draw it seems to represent somethingabout their out of awareness understanding of this person.

    • 01:24:34

      MIKE SIMMONS: Right.

    • 01:24:35

      BRIGID PROCTOR: OK.One and a half minutes up.Now I want you all turn your bits of paper face down.Then I want B to turn theirs face up.

    • 01:24:58

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: Now each of you are co-supervisorsto B, or in your case your co-supervisor.And there are very strict rules.And this is a very strict exercise.And you have to obey the rules absolutely.B has to think quite carefully what they

    • 01:25:18

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: want from their co-supervisors.And there's a whole choice of things you could do.You could just take the time to talk to yourselfand they stay silent.I'm going to have about a minute.You can ask them to say what they would feellike if they were that fish.You could say what you think you would

    • 01:25:40

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: feel like if you were looking at a person thatlooked like that fish.You absolutely can't ask them to talkabout the person themselves.You can only talk about the picture of the fish,even if you take the time yourself,it's to say what you see in the fish,not to tell them about the client.OK?

    • 01:25:60

      LYNDA MIZEN: Can you just quality that?It's a little bit confusing.

    • 01:26:03

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Yes.It's like you're not going to tell themthe background of the person or the client.I don't know whether it's a client or a personthat you're talking about.If you say I want to talk for that one minuteand I don't want anything from you, then what you talk aboutis your picture.Don't talk about the client.So there's no information about the clientat all in this exercise.

    • 01:26:24

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: OK?And anything else you can think of youlike and what you see there, what do you imagine there.Anything you like, but they have to abideby what you've asked them to do and do nothing else.You could say what would you interpret,but if you're not asking for interpretations you shouldn't

    • 01:26:46

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: give interpretations, OK?Right.So off you go.You have one minute.

    • 01:26:54

      LYNDA MIZEN: I'd like you just to look at my pictureand tell me what you see.[INTERPOSING VOICES]

    • 01:27:07

      BRIGID PROCTOR: You have to tell them what you want.

    • 01:27:09

      NORMA JAMES: I think I'd like justto try and explain it because I'm not at all certain whyI've drawn this.If I could just describe what I've-- because it's a bitof a puzzle for me.

    • 01:27:22


    • 01:27:26

      NORMA JAMES: Because for a start Ican't see where your fish is anything like mine.So it's closed and it's smiling.It's facing downwards.And it's got a smiley face and very small eyes.

    • 01:27:51

      NORMA JAMES [continued]: And that's the puzzle because fish have usually got big openmouths that go [INAUDIBLE], but this one hasn't.It's closed and it's smiling.And I'm not certain about that.

    • 01:28:06

      BRIGID PROCTOR: OK.Timer.Turn it around down again.we're going to repeat with B.

    • 01:28:14

      MIKE SIMMONS: So what's happening here?

    • 01:28:16

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Well, so many things.And it's a very complex little exercise.But the purpose of introducing that exercise in a groupis as I say on the video, it's a very strongly disciplinedexercise.

    • 01:28:36

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: People aren't allowed to ask, or say, or hypothesize anythingunless the person drawing the fishhas asked them specifically to comment in that way.It's a very good teaching excise for discipliningco-supervisors.

    • 01:28:55

      MIKE SIMMONS: And you're being very clear about theseare the rules of this exercise.This is what you've got to do, yeah?

    • 01:29:01

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Yes.And in fact what's interesting isthat people think if they don't wantto be a bossy supervisor they have to be very laid backand uh-uh, uh-uh.But actually we think there are two different tasks in this.I do no supervision at all.The supervision is all done by the person themselves

    • 01:29:23

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: and their things.But I am very bossy about managing the exercise, whichmakes it safe.If you don't manage the time boundaries,get them really clear, get it very zippy, not much time.That's the way that results seem to emerge.

    • 01:29:39

      MIKE SIMMONS: And this is a very differentto exercise to the previous one.Here we're working with materials, paper, pens,crayons, and so forth.

    • 01:29:47

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Yes.You're getting at two things really.You're getting at unconscious materialreally by getting people, first of all, to do that relaxationand think about the clients there.And then to draw without thinking too much really on it.And you're also getting them to recognize

    • 01:30:07

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP [continued]: the importance of they being able to say whatthey want from supervision.

    • 01:30:12

      MIKE SIMMONS: Right.

    • 01:30:12

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Being very clear that theyhave got to say what they want.

    • 01:30:17

      JULIA MARTIN: Can you tell me what emotions you see there?

    • 01:30:20

      TESS BROOKS-SHEPPARD: I was just about to say actually.[INAUDIBLE] on the eye, but then the eyelooks kind of almost angry actually.I'm not sure whether it's sad or--

    • 01:30:30

      BRIGID PROCTOR: OK.That's the end of that one.Turn it over.And here we have A left or C left?

    • 01:30:39


    • 01:30:40

      BRIGID PROCTOR: C. So turn over yours and do the same.And I'll talk to these people.Have either of you chosen to talk about being the fish?

    • 01:30:50

      JULIE JONES: About being it?

    • 01:30:51

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Being it, what itwould be like if you were this fish.

    • 01:30:55

      JULIE JONES: No.

    • 01:30:56

      BRIGID PROCTOR: So that's what I'd like you to do.I'd like to, while they're doing their one and a half minutes,each take three quarters of a minute just to say,if I were the other person's fish,I think this is what it would feel like.Do you understand that?

    • 01:31:10


    • 01:31:11

      BRIGID PROCTOR: You do her's and she does yours.OK?three quarters of a minute.

    • 01:31:17

      NORMA JAMES: I think I'd feel quite sad and, yeah, not in my

    • 01:31:27

      MIKE SIMMONS: And here's a little extrathat you're just choosing to make up for the factthat there are uneven group sizes,but it also seems a valuable addition to the exercise.

    • 01:31:38

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Yes.That's one of the problems, of course,and it does muck up the timing quite badly,but I just thought of a little task, whichwas to get them to-- I'd noticed neither of thoseseem to be identifying into the drawing.So I just invited them to identifyinto the other person's fish and say what

    • 01:32:00

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: I would feel like as that fish.And it seemed to be helpful.

    • 01:32:03

      MIKE SIMMONS: Seems useful to them.

    • 01:32:06

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Right.Time up.

    • 01:32:09

      TESS BROOKS-SHEPPARD: Thank you.

    • 01:32:11

      BRIGID PROCTOR: And if your turn them face up,you've got yours face up, [INAUDIBLE].Now I want you to draw yourself on the same page as a fishas well, on the same page that you've got your fish with this[INAUDIBLE].

    • 01:32:29

      JULIE JONES: With this person or?

    • 01:32:31

      BRIGID PROCTOR: With that person in relation to that fish.Draw another fish.And that's about half a minute.

    • 01:32:46

      MIKE SIMMONS: Now they're drawing themselves as fish too?

    • 01:32:48

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Well, I mean, that's very interestingbecause if you think about it it's transferand some counter-transference made explicit, or made visible,not necessarily explicit.We very seldom use words like transferenceand counter-transference early on in working with peoplebecause we find even if they'd been

    • 01:33:10

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: on a psycho dynamic course they seemto find them terribly muddling.But if they draw themselves as a fish in relationto their client and see how little space they've left,or what huge space that they're filling, and wondering whatto do with, it immediately shows them what'shappening in the relationship.

    • 01:33:30

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: And it's generally the bit where you get the most laughterand surprise really.And it seems to us that that very simple little exercisereveals in an incredibly short time, really very short time,three bits of work done in 15 minutes.

    • 01:33:52

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: Three bits of really good work done in 15 minutesreveals more than talking about it for maybe half an hour.

    • 01:33:59

      MIKE SIMMONS: Right.Greater understanding.

    • 01:34:01

      BRIGID PROCTOR: For one case in half an hour.

    • 01:34:02

      MIKE SIMMONS: Yeah.

    • 01:34:03

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: And also it is an exercisethat they can do at home at any time.After they've seen a client they can draw them as a fish.

    • 01:34:12

      MIKE SIMMONS: Interesting thinkingabout making client note, which we always thinkof as being text based, but thinkingabout also introducing something like this into those notes.

    • 01:34:28

      BRIDGID PROCTOR: OK.And then just look at it for a second or two.Just think about it.I'm not going to ask you to talk to each other about thisat all.This is just for you to look at for yourself.And when you feel ready just write three wordsthat you would like to keep in mind for yourself

    • 01:34:51

      BRIDGID PROCTOR [continued]: when you next encounter this client or person.Three words that come to mind as you look at that picture.

    • 01:35:13

      TESS BROOKS-SHEPPARD: The whole picture?

    • 01:35:15

      BRIGID PROCTOR: The whole picture.[INAUDIBLE] the whole scenario, anythingthat you want to remember or has come to mindabout the whole scenario.

    • 01:35:37

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: OK.Anybody who doesn't want their fishto be on display so other people can just look at what they'vedrawn and written?You happy for everyone to see it?So if you'd like to put away the cardboard and the pens,take them off scene, as it were.And then we can just put all the pictures

    • 01:35:59

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: on the table in the middle for a minute.I noticed you sneaking looks at each other's pictures[INAUDIBLE].Now you can look at them properly.And they're fascinating, aren't they?

    • 01:36:24

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: And then just leaving those scenarios aside,that bit of self-supervision aside, just let'scome back into the group being co-supervisors.And just for a minute or two think about the exercise.What was it like for you to do?How did you find it?

    • 01:36:45

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: Were your co-supervisors, did theygive you want you wanted and so on?

    • 01:36:51

      MIKE SIMMONS: I'm conscious that you'reasking them to put words down, but you don't actuallydo anything with the words.

    • 01:36:58

      BRIGID PROCTOR: No.I mean, we didn't even know what the words are [INAUDIBLE].

    • 01:37:01

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: No, and I think we usuallyencourage people to take their drawings home with themand the words may be important to them.Yes.But because we're, I suppose, focusingmuch more on the drawing there than--and what's interesting, of course, with the fish,[INAUDIBLE] I mean, people can translate it as jellyfish.

    • 01:37:24

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP [continued]: Of all sorts of different shapes and sizes.

    • 01:37:27

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Between anything between a sharkand a jellyfish.

    • 01:37:29


    • 01:37:30

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Or shrimp.

    • 01:37:31

      MIKE SIMMONS: So I guess what I'mseeing is the importance of them reflectingon what they're doing more than you reflecting on what they'redoing.

    • 01:37:41


    • 01:37:41


    • 01:37:41

      MIKE SIMMONS: And I guess that tiesin with what you're saying about the work that they are doing.

    • 01:37:46

      BRIGID PROCTOR: That's right.

    • 01:37:47

      MIKE SIMMONS: Rather than the work you are doing.You are holding the process.

    • 01:37:49

      BRIGID PROCTOR: That's right.

    • 01:37:50

      MIKE SIMMONS: In which they're working.You just checked that everyone's OK with everyone elseseeing their fish.

    • 01:37:59


    • 01:38:00

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Good manners in the group.

    • 01:38:02

      BRIGID PROCTOR: I suppose we're always modeling--trying to model good manners.

    • 01:38:06

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Respect, I think,isn't it there in the group, yes.So we do sometimes actually mention good mannersin the group as part of the working agreement really.And that seems to be it.

    • 01:38:19

      BRIGID PROCTOR: And in encouraging self protection.

    • 01:38:21


    • 01:38:22

      BRIGID PROCTOR: So it's OK to self protect.You don't have to be defensive in the way it's often used.

    • 01:38:28

      MIKE SIMMONS: I'm conscious your workingat an edge where people are endlessly[INAUDIBLE] it could be revealing more of themselvesthan they expected to.And sometimes more of themselves than they wanted to.Are you just giving them the chanceto acknowledge that and decide what they want to do about it?

    • 01:38:46

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Absolutely.

    • 01:38:47

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Because that's one of the big thingsthat people fear in groups.I think that they're going to be exposed.

    • 01:38:53

      MIKE SIMMONS: Yes.

    • 01:38:56

      LYNDA MIZEN: I think it was helpful to have the option whenasking the co-supervisees what we wanted because it actuallymade me think about what I wanted.And that becomes [INAUDIBLE] presenting.What did I want to bring in this issue by asking them?

    • 01:39:15

      BRIGID PROCTOR: It did really help?

    • 01:39:16


    • 01:39:18

      JULIA MARTIN: I had quite and emotional response to it,actually.When I first closed my eyes and thought of the client,it was very dark.And I feel now as though it's OK.It seems safer because I don't feel as though perhaps I'm

    • 01:39:42

      JULIA MARTIN [continued]: in the dark anymore.The client might still be and that's OK because that's[INAUDIBLE] client.But I think having my co-supervisesssee my client represented like thatand identify things helped reassure me

    • 01:40:04

      JULIA MARTIN [continued]: that I was looking at the same picture [INAUDIBLE].

    • 01:40:07

      BRIGID PROCTOR: [INAUDIBLE] that sounds if they were on target.

    • 01:40:10

      JULIA MARTIN: Yes.

    • 01:40:13

      JULIE JONES: But I feel that it was quite a strong exercisein the sense that I didn't why I drove my client reallytoo much like that.And it was Norma who actually likened my client

    • 01:40:36

      JULIE JONES [continued]: to this dolphin and I kind of actually had drawn a dolphin.And she said, but he doesn't seemto be able to do want dolphins do.And [INAUDIBLE].I'm just was so amazed by that commentbecause it really answered my question.

    • 01:40:56

      JULIE JONES [continued]: And it was amazing.It's absolutely amazing.[INAUDIBLE] a real kind of point of learning.And it answered really a quite strong questionthat I hadn't actually thought about before.

    • 01:41:14

      BRIGID PROCTOR: [INAUDIBLE] have to put the question.

    • 01:41:16


    • 01:41:18


    • 01:41:22

      NORMA JAMES: Yes.And I was really puzzled by it.And what you said about being split,it didn't belong to, and what I realizedI've drawn my fish like that, but Ithink it's explained what's happening for me,

    • 01:41:46

      NORMA JAMES [continued]: which is really strange.[LAUGHTER]

    • 01:41:52

      BRIGID PROCTOR: So it really helped you with what's in herand what's in him and what's in you?

    • 01:41:57

      NORMA JAMES: Yes.

    • 01:41:57

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Yeah.And do you notice how everybody can do very simple things.You don't have to be clever or experienced.We know so much.We've been in the world so long from the momentwe've been born interacting with our carers [INAUDIBLE]

    • 01:42:18

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: in the playground, and everything.It isn't what you've learned from the books.It's what you know.And it's difficult.

    • 01:42:27


    • 01:42:28


    • 01:42:29


    • 01:42:32

      BRIGID PROCTOR: I do apologize.

    • 01:42:36

      TESS BROOKS-SHEPPARD: I think it's so insightful.Because the same thing, how my subconscious awarenessof my relationship with this client,it's very different to what's really going on.So it was just, yeah. [INAUDIBLE].Feel quite surprised, but it's quite positive,so I feel quite happy.

    • 01:42:55

      BRIGID PROCTOR: [INAUDIBLE].Now see, we don't know what we know such a lot of the time,but it isn't polite.And we talk about good group manners,but the good manners as we take to working with clientsare often the good manners we bring in from outside.We mustn't notice that are difficult.I mustn't feel ashamed.

    • 01:43:18

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: I mustn't notice that she's a rather an unpleasant person.Those things.And somehow it's-- one of the reasons that we use thisexercise, and we didn't invent it,somebody else invented called Margaret Gallagher.I would like to give her the credit for it.

    • 01:43:40

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: It somehow licenses us to realize what we know,but don't let ourselves know.And do it respectfully.Nobody felt their client was disrespected by this, do you?I don't imagine, although their colleague,I don't know [INAUDIBLE].Were they all clients or were they someone's colleague?

    • 01:44:00

      LYNDA MIZEN: Mine was a colleague.

    • 01:44:02

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Colleague.So thank you very much.

    • 01:44:07

      NORMA JAMES: Thank you.

    • 01:44:08

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: [INAUDIBLE] remind youthat you can do this yourself at home.It's a real good self supervision [INAUDIBLE].Do it after a client or anything if you want to.You can do it and bring it next time.You can-- when you come to the group.

    • 01:44:25

      NORMA JAMES: We could bring our fish in.

    • 01:44:27

      JULIE JONES: Well, I think the sharing was very important.

    • 01:44:29

      NORMA JAMES: Yes.

    • 01:44:33

      BRIGID PROCTOR: OK.Go on to the next client.

    • 01:44:39

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: You're all getting very brilliant nowat being able to hear each other and feedback exactlywhat the other person has said, so that you're reallyshowing that you're listening.And I think you're also finding yourselves that that is reallyhelping you to resolve confusion and to hear, there'sthis old saying that says, I don't know whatI mean until I hear what I say.

    • 01:45:01

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP [continued]: And sometimes that hearing back again is really helpful.But I want to move on into being able to do that as well,but also to be able to focus on whatwe've called a five or a seven eyed model of supervision.We adapted Peter Hawkins' original model.

    • 01:45:22

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP [continued]: And then adapted it into--

    • 01:45:23

      BRIGID PROCTOR: And Robin Shohet.Peter Hawkins and Robin Shohet.

    • 01:45:27

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Model, yes.And we're just going to use today the five eyes.And just to remind you about it, we'dlike to do just a little demonstration.And if we could move the table first of all, could we?Could you just move the table out of the way?

    • 01:45:53

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP [continued]: And could two of you just bring your chairs into the middle.And one of you be a client and one of you be a counselor.You're not going to client or you're not going to counsel,but you're just going to take that role.So just bring your chair into here.Bit further in.Right in so that you're facing each otheras if we are in session.

    • 01:46:16

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP [continued]: Now this is to remind you of the five different areasin which you can focus.We call them five eyes, or five focusing.And which are you?Were you the counselor or the client?

    • 01:46:27

      NORMA JAMES: I'll be a counselor.

    • 01:46:28

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: You're the counselor.

    • 01:46:29

      NORMA JAMES: Yeah.

    • 01:46:30

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: OK.And you're the client.OK.So focus number one is the client.That's the normal focus and that'soften the focus that you bring allthe time, the history of the client,anything about the client.Client's relationships, the client.There.So that's number one focus, number one eye.OK?

    • 01:46:50

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP [continued]: Number two is the, would you just hold upand say, this is what you're actually doing.This is what you're doing to the client,the responses you might be making,the techniques you might be using, if you're Gestalt,you might be doing chair techniques or anything.So the focus then is on what did you actually do

    • 01:47:13

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP [continued]: when she said so and so?Or when you were thinking so and so, what did you actually do?What was your response?Or what was there?OK?

    • 01:47:19

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Even what you're working agreement might be.What's the contract with the client?What does she--

    • 01:47:25


    • 01:47:29

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: OK.Now could you get up, both of you?And could you do a little dance with each other?

    • 01:47:34

      NORMA JAMES: [INAUDIBLE] dance with people.[LAUGHTER]

    • 01:47:37

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: That's right.Ah, yes.OK.So what's this?Which is this?What focus would this be?

    • 01:47:46

      TESS BROOKS-SHEPPARD: The relationship?

    • 01:47:46

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: The relationship, yes,what's going on between you.What's the dance in the relationship?What are going on there?So number three is the relationship between you.And number four, if you put your head down,Norma, this is what's going on inside the counselor.So being able to focus on what's happening for her.

    • 01:48:09

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP [continued]: What are you thinking?What are you feeling?What are the images you've got going on?Anything that may be going on.What fears are you working on?What's happening for you inside?OK.So you can see the four different ways.And number five is this one.

    • 01:48:32

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP [continued]: Not much room is what?The system.

    • 01:48:36

      JULIE JONES: The system.

    • 01:48:37

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: The system you're in, there, number five.So it's one that hadn't been thought of before,but it really often is very important.It might be a partnership you're in, the marriage you're in.It might be the agency you're in.Anything that's there, the culture you're in there.So that's number five to focus on as well.

    • 01:48:59

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP [continued]: OK?Right.So you can take your chairs back again.Thank you.

    • 01:49:03

      MIKE SIMMONS: You were talking about a Five Eyedmodel and a seven eyed.

    • 01:49:07

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Seven eyed, eyed.And the seven eyed includes the relationshipwith the supervisor and what's going on inside the supervisor.But with a group of counselors that's more confusing for themto have that.So we've left those two out and just doing the onesthat they can use within the group.

    • 01:49:27

      MIKE SIMMONS: And that's what you'duse within a group supervision.

    • 01:49:30

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Yes.Now comes the choice.Julia, you're going to present, aren't you?So you've got the client.So you have a choice between one, two, three, and four.Well, you have to decide which arethe ones you're going to do.Brigid said she'll do number five, the system.

    • 01:49:51

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP [continued]: So let's give you the first choice, Tess.

    • 01:49:54

      TESS BROOKS-SHEPPARD: What's going on within the counselor.

    • 01:49:57

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: What's going on within the counselor, numberfour.

    • 01:49:59


    • 01:49:60


    • 01:50:01

      LYNDA MIZEN: I'll go for three.

    • 01:50:03

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: The relationship?

    • 01:50:03

      LYNDA MIZEN: The relationship.

    • 01:50:05

      JULIE JONES: And I'll do two then.

    • 01:50:07

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: OK.So that leaves you the client, the history and everythingon there.OK.Are you fairly happy with this?We can always have another go, but it's getting that focusand remembering to listen hard, and to give firstof all, an empathic response, first of all,and then to give the focus there,

    • 01:50:30

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP [continued]: which is a sort of question to Julia to go on [INAUDIBLE].You don't respond, first of all, to those.You listen to all of them.And then you choose one at the end to respond to,one which perhaps you find be most useful at that momentthen.And then you go again and do another.

    • 01:50:50

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP [continued]: Go a bit more about the type of the client.And then we have another go at the second one.OK?

    • 01:50:55

      JULIA MARTIN: I think so.I'm a little anxious.I'll start off with it.Right.My client is a young man who I've seen seven times already.He's recently decided that he doesn'twant to see me every week.So we've contracted now to meet fortnightly.

    • 01:51:21

      JULIA MARTIN [continued]: The very last session he was due to attend, he didn't.And I haven't heard from him since.So things are sort of suspended at the moment.The reason I haven't contacted himis because I can't get hold of him directly.

    • 01:51:43

      JULIA MARTIN [continued]: He lives in a hostile.And his carers are very protective of him.And they initially made the referral.And if I make contact I feel it wouldbreach the confidentiality between usbecause he does have a lot of problems

    • 01:52:05

      JULIA MARTIN [continued]: trying to disassociate himself with that sort of environment.So I feel a little bit in limbo at the moment,but even prior to that the clientbrought very mixed things.

    • 01:52:27

      JULIA MARTIN [continued]: He talked a lot about his family.And he talked a lot about his dark places.And would get very emotional whenhe talked to his dark places.But he has difficulty focusing and staying with any emotions.

    • 01:52:50

      JULIA MARTIN [continued]: And so the next session he might perhaps talkto me only about video games.And will really resist doing any work, if you like, [INAUDIBLE].However, I think his is still doing the workbecause he's maintaining the relationship,or up until now he has.

    • 01:53:11

      JULIA MARTIN [continued]: And I think that's where my dilemma is at the moment.Perhaps what am I-- what have I been doing, what am I doing,and what will I do next with this particular person?Have I got any choice, I suppose,if he doesn't make contact with me again?

    • 01:53:30

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Right.Let's see if we have one response.Start with one, two, three, and four going around.[INAUDIBLE]

    • 01:53:38

      NORMA JAMES: I wonder if you could tell me a little bit moreabout your client, about the material that he brings to you.

    • 01:53:46


    • 01:53:47

      JULIE JONES: Not quite sure kindaof where this seems to be going.And there was a couple of things that you actually mentioned.You also talked about these dark places.And I'd wondered if you'd perhapsfirstly explore that with him.

    • 01:54:08

      JULIE JONES [continued]: And I'm not sure whether you'd kind of found outwhere he wants to go with his counselingand what he would find as a suitable sortof [INAUDIBLE] counseling.

    • 01:54:22

      MIKE SIMMONS: It's quite a bad sound there,but I think we can get a bit of a sense of there's a blurringof two different eyes going on at that place.

    • 01:54:29

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Yes.I wasn't quite sure if she was talking about interventions,or about the client.Would have been clearer if she'd said,have you actually talked with him about the dark places?

    • 01:54:40

      MIKE SIMMONS: Right.And that would have located it quite clearly.

    • 01:54:43

      BRIGID PROCTOR: [INAUDIBLE] interventions.

    • 01:54:45

      LYNDA MIZEN: And I was just wondering.I picked up you said you felt in limbo.But I was wondering when you mentionedyour client had been playing video games,I was wondering, Julia, if you wouldthink about your relationship with himin the terms of a video game.What would it be?

    • 01:55:06


    • 01:55:08

      TESS BROOKS-SHEPPARD: What I was listening to you Ialso, that the word limbo stood out for me as well.And I also sensed your confusion about what to do next.And I wondered when you were talkingabout having been in limbo and having no choice,or feeling that there was no choice,wondered what was going on inside you when

    • 01:55:30

      TESS BROOKS-SHEPPARD [continued]: you had those feelings.

    • 01:55:33

      BRIGID PROCTOR: I hear in that storythat there's a real difficulty in the relationshipyour client has with that whole hostel system and his carers.And that somehow they're almost as much a problem for youas he is.

    • 01:55:55

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: And I'm wondering if it might be helpful to explore where youthink you fit in that kind of system, who you are for him,or who he thinks you are for him within that system of ratherover-protective carers, perhaps.

    • 01:56:17

      JULIA MARTIN: [INAUDIBLE].[LAUGHTER]I think, Norma, your questions about the actual client,I feel quite OK in terms of sort of who the client isand what his stuff is.And I feel quite secure about knowing that

    • 01:56:40

      JULIA MARTIN [continued]: to a certain extent.And similarly, Julie, yes I have explored those thingsand that's been part of the process, if you like,that we've worked through.I think the resistance is in as muchas he's, oh, he has been continuing the relationship,

    • 01:57:01

      JULIA MARTIN [continued]: but not following on, if you like.Some weeks we'll do real work and then we'llhave a couple of sessions where he's not engaging,but he's still there with me.So he engages with me at very different levels.And because of his sort of medical history, if you like,

    • 01:57:22

      JULIA MARTIN [continued]: he's very rigid and structured in his thinking.And so will only work within what he's comfortablewith at any given time.OK.To challenge him to do it differentlywould be very, very difficult.I'm sounding very defensive now, I realize, of my client.And [INAUDIBLE].

    • 01:57:42

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: It's when anybodyoffers to present in the group like this for an exercise thisoften makes me feel more vulnerable because obviouslyshe's been sent down a bit deeper than she thought,I think there when she was presenting.It's gone further there.

    • 01:58:03

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP [continued]: And it's I suppose recognizing the vulnerabilityand acknowledging it to her.

    • 01:58:11

      MIKE SIMMONS: I'm reminded a bit of client whogoes for counseling and thinking it's all going to be easyand suddenly finds they're in touchwith things they didn't expect or didn't realize were there.

    • 01:58:26

      JULIA MARTIN: Limbo.Yes, I think I feel my clients [INAUDIBLE]and these three reflections sort of melded into one in my mind.My client's in limbo, I think.That's something that struck me very, very clearly as youwere talking.He's not allowed to make decisions for himself.

    • 01:58:46

      JULIA MARTIN [continued]: He's 21 years old, but he has to adhereto the guidelines set down by the hostel, and his carers,and yet he's 21.And he's bursting to go out into the world.And so I guess I'm feeling that from him.

    • 01:59:07

      JULIA MARTIN [continued]: And I feel kind of thing but with himbecause I want to enable him to go out,but I'm also pushing against the system thatis holding him back.Are they my problems?Sometimes they're my problems.Sometimes I feel really angry with the people there.And so I think I've definitely attempted

    • 01:59:27

      JULIA MARTIN [continued]: to make my relationship with him different from all of those.And I think this has brought me write backto why I'm not making contact because I wantit to be absolutely 100% his choice whether he stays,whether he goes, whether he engages or not.And then what comes into my mind is but if he really wants to he

    • 01:59:53

      JULIA MARTIN [continued]: may feel unable to because he's not usually allowed to.So, yeah.So I'm back to my limbo now, my confusionas to what's acceptable and manageable for himwithin our relationship and within other scenariothat he has to live with and cope with every day.

    • 02:00:15

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: OK.Can we have another response?Would you like to start this way this time around?

    • 02:00:20

      TESS BROOKS-SHEPPARD: As you weretalking I was struck about the thing that resonatedfor me when you were talking was that you wantedto give him all of the choice.And I was listening to you say that I was wondering whatabout the choice for you within the relationship.And where were you within the client having all the choice?

    • 02:00:41

      MIKE SIMMONS: And now you're going aroundon another round of the five eyes.Would you just carry on?What would determine at which point you stop?

    • 02:00:51

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Probably perhaps do two more rounds,then depending on the time you've got,or how long the first bit had taken there,but you've always got to remember that in the timeyou've got to leave enough time for them to usetheir own clients, as well.So you're limiting.But if it feels as if they've learned enough from that time,

    • 02:01:13

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP [continued]: I mean, you might only do one round first time,and then perhaps go back again to itand do the exercise again next time with them there.

    • 02:01:22

      BRIGID PROCTOR: So there will always alsobe that it is a bit of proper supervisionfor the person in addition to it being a learning exercise.It is the supervision for the person presenting,so it's really important to make sure she's finished, often gotto somewhere she wants to.

    • 02:01:43

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: And hasn't got any more to do.

    • 02:01:45

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Yes, which we don't show on the video at allthere on helping her move that up.And see where she might be going.

    • 02:01:52


    • 02:01:55

      LYNDA MIZEN: I was thinking as you were speaking I wasn't sureif you'd answered the question I'dsaid about the video game in your relationship.

    • 02:02:03

      JULIA MARTIN: Right.

    • 02:02:05

      LYNDA MIZEN: And I was wondering what would it be likeif you could give him the choice,if you had the magic wand to give himthe choice in your relationship, how you would do that.

    • 02:02:20

      BRIGID PROCTOR: And as I heard you talking then about itI was wondering if you'd like to think about yourselfin a way as an anti-system.

    • 02:02:42

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: You're setting yourself up as a counter [INAUDIBLE].Well, I'm not saying you are setting yourself up,but it's almost as if there's an urge to set yourself up,and sometimes you do as a counter culture.But there's some reluctance in you to do that.So it's is somehow exploring a bit moreof where you think you stand in relation in that system

    • 02:03:06

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: somehow.

    • 02:03:11

      JULIE JONES: You mentioned as well about that your clientcame and did some work sometimes,and then sometimes didn't do any work.And you sort of said that for you that's absolutely fine.You want to just go with what he wants,

    • 02:03:32

      JULIE JONES [continued]: but I wonder if you've actually put thatto him about what's actually happening,that we are working sometimes.Why is it that we're working sometimes?What makes it for working sometimesand what makes it for not working sometimes?

    • 02:03:52

      JULIE JONES [continued]: Perhaps just to try and get some idea about those twodifferences.

    • 02:04:00

      NORMA JAMES: Yeah.And it strikes me as I was hearing youthat you're trying to give him choice,but he doesn't have much choice.He doesn't have much, certainly doesn'thave a lot in his big system.I mean, it's quite limited, the choice that he has with you.That's how it's sounding.

    • 02:04:24

      JULIA MARTIN: Yes.I feel I want to-- what do I want?If I had a magic wand, he would be free.He'd be free to make his choices and take responsibility,but he's not allowed to take responsibility for his actions

    • 02:04:49

      JULIA MARTIN [continued]: or for anything really.And I guess that's what I've been doing,is allowing him to be responsible for what he brings,and not challenging it.Yeah.So I've been trying to give him that.I don't think I could answer your previous video gamequestion because when he does only bring me video games

    • 02:05:12

      JULIA MARTIN [continued]: I find it very difficult to be sort of motivated myselfwithin the sessions.It's not something I'm sort of good at.We talk Star Wars sometimes and that's OK, but a magic wand,yes.I feel like I want to give him his freedom.

    • 02:05:32

      JULIA MARTIN [continued]: I believe in him.I believe that he is capable of a lot more.Back to the system, the counterculture, yes, Iguess I'd be in a different relationship with him

    • 02:05:53

      JULIA MARTIN [continued]: as an advocate perhaps.I could see me rallying against the system.But that isn't the role I have with him.And it wouldn't be productive, I don't think, at the momentbecause I think he's got to do his own rallyingand perhaps that's what I can be.I can be part of that process of enabling

    • 02:06:15

      JULIA MARTIN [continued]: him to do his own rallying, become his own advocate,kind of find the words to use.Because he is very, very articulate.But he's not heard.I think he's not heard.And that brings me back to contacting him.

    • 02:06:37

      JULIA MARTIN [continued]: And it's very difficult, but alsoif he's chosen not to come I needto hear that as a very clear message, I think,that he's made a decision.And that that's OK.Some [INAUDIBLE] thoughts.Thank you.

    • 02:06:57

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: OK.Was that enough for you?[INAUDIBLE]

    • 02:07:02

      JULIA MARTIN: Yeah.Thank you.

    • 02:07:03

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: OK.OK.And comments on the exercise?

    • 02:07:16

      TESS BROOKS-SHEPPARD: I found it really helpfulas I was listening to what Julia was saying.I was able to sort of take my head to the different places,to zone in and zone out.And that was just, that was really helpfulbeing able to put on the different hatsand look from all those different perspectives.

    • 02:07:33

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: So you were using all the hats as well asyours?

    • 02:07:36

      TESS BROOKS-SHEPPARD: Yeah.I was going round [INAUDIBLE].

    • 02:07:40

      NORMA JAMES: I did want to go other places than justthe client.I wanted to sort of switch roles.

    • 02:07:47

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: [INAUDIBLE] would have been what, Norma?

    • 02:07:54

      NORMA JAMES: Yeah, what Lynda was doing.

    • 02:07:56

      LYNDA MIZEN: Relationship.

    • 02:07:56

      NORMA JAMES: The relationship, yes.I think so.

    • 02:07:59

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Is that your normal [INAUDIBLE]?

    • 02:08:00

      NORMA JAMES: Yes.Because that is what I was switching back beforeand I had to keep on thinking, no, back to the client,back to the client.

    • 02:08:09

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Was that becauseof this particular client or was it thatis your normal way of thinking?As you're listening you are normallythinking about the relationship?

    • 02:08:18

      NORMA JAMES: I'm thinking about the relationship, I think,yeah.

    • 02:08:22

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: So I think Peter Hawkins said that we allhave a way of focusing.So it's recognizing what your own focus is normallyand then beginning to be better in the groupand helping each other.Now we know these.

    • 02:08:43

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP [continued]: On working on these focus.And what I would like you to do before you come next time iswe'll get our next client, we're goingto record under all those five headingsso that you're recording.I mean, your normal things are recording about the client,aren't they, quite often.Hopefully you caught what you do, but not necessarily.

    • 02:09:04

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP [continued]: You may not actually, if you reallybegin to think [INAUDIBLE] what did I do at that point,or what was I thinking?What [INAUDIBLE] was I making?And then thinking about the relationship and noticehow easy it is to use metaphor.Quite often sometimes I say it's more like the dance.What dance would be doing together?What video game?What was the name of the dance with your client?

    • 02:09:26

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP [continued]: If you were doing a dance with your client, what would it be?

    • 02:09:31

      JULIA MARTIN: That's really difficult actually.I started feeling as you were talking and sort of reflectinga little.So I find difficult to hold everything at once,but I actually feel a bit like his big sister.So it would be a pulling him along dance.[LAUGHTER]

    • 02:09:49

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Yes.Well, that's interesting.So could you do that for next time?So that when you bring your clients next timeyou can think about you've got those.And then you can use each other.You can either choose a different eye next timeto record, [INAUDIBLE] sort of respond to the next person,but it is important to try and do an empathic response

    • 02:10:10

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP [continued]: with it, because it can be quite challenging there.And the response softens it all the time.[INAUDIBLE]

    • 02:10:19

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Can I say one more thing that struck me?

    • 02:10:21


    • 02:10:22

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Because the other two eyes in that,the seven eyes in that really, and the other'sabout the relationship between the supervisorand the counselor.Difficult to do in a group because you allhave different reactions.And about what's going on inside the supervisor.And if I were to be looking at that whole exercisewith that eye, I couldn't help noticing that Norma,

    • 02:10:44

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: you were the one that didn't a choice of eye.You were landed with one because we went round this way.You said to take two, and so you took one.And I wondered, it seemed to me interesting that that almostset you up to be in a parallel process almost

    • 02:11:05

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: with the client, who didn't have choices.And was kind of slightly truculent about them,but not openly truculent about his lack of choice somehow.And I wondered if you'd got a bit landedwith that bit of the feeling just because youdidn't have a choice.

    • 02:11:26

      NORMA JAMES: Yes.

    • 02:11:27

      BRIGID PROCTOR: And it may not be the case,but it's worth just as an illustrationof how groups can reflect what's going in the client.And somebody in the group would pick up different bits.

    • 02:11:41

      NORMA JAMES: Yes.

    • 02:11:42

      BRIGID PROCTOR: We'll go on to the next client.

    • 02:11:43

      NORMA JAMES: Thank you.

    • 02:11:44

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Well, I think it'syour turn, Norma, isn't it?To bring a client?

    • 02:11:52

      NORMA JAMES: I've been working with this manfor about seven sessions now.And his wife died very suddenly in August. [3rd ClientPresentation, The Sculpt] They were out shoppingand he was in a hurry to get home.He's huge cricket fan.

    • 02:12:15

      NORMA JAMES [continued]: And couldn't wait to get home because a match was on.And was a bit cross, no, not a bit.He was very cross with his wife because she wantedto get this bit and that bit.So they eventually got home and he said,I'm going to watch the cricket.Make me a cup of tea.

    • 02:12:37

      NORMA JAMES [continued]: And he sat there for a while and hethought, where's my cup of tea?So he walked out of the kitchen and his wifewas slumped over the kitchen table.And he said, I did nothing.I went back into the living room and I

    • 02:12:58

      NORMA JAMES [continued]: watched the cricket match until it ended.And then I went back into the kitchenand she was still on the table.And he went up to her and acknowledgedwhat he knew the first time, was that she had died.

    • 02:13:20

      NORMA JAMES [continued]: And it was then that he phoned his doctor and the whole systemcame into place then.And he tells me that he coped with everything,arranged everything.He has one son who lives up at North Scotland

    • 02:13:42

      NORMA JAMES [continued]: and he came down, but he was sort of in automatic pilot.And he says, I do these things very well.He was a solicitor and knows how to do things by the book.

    • 02:14:05

      NORMA JAMES [continued]: And then it was over the months went by.The funeral was over.The months went by and he went to the doctorsbecause he wasn't sleeping at all.And he was having very bad dreams.So the doctor suggested that he comes to the agency.

    • 02:14:27

      NORMA JAMES [continued]: Would you like to talk to somebody?And he was a bit reluctant to start off with,but the lack of sleep was sort of really getting to him.And so he eventually turned up at the agencyand that's where I've been working with him.

    • 02:14:48

      NORMA JAMES [continued]: And when I heard what he had to say, especially about ignoring,because he chose to ignore that his wife was dead, I thought,oh my goodness, something's going to crashed down with him.

    • 02:15:08

      NORMA JAMES [continued]: I expected him to get very emotive and very emotionalabout it, but I think one sessionafter the other he just goes back over the same ground.He says the same thing.And he says it in a very matter of fact way

    • 02:15:32

      NORMA JAMES [continued]: as if he's reporting it.He almost says it word for word.And it feels to me that he's very, very stuck.He can't go further than telling methe same thing week after week.

    • 02:15:57

      NORMA JAMES [continued]: And I'm feeling very stuck with himbecause I don't quite know how he should move on.We've learned all these things about different stagesof grief.And I know that it's helpful for people

    • 02:16:17

      NORMA JAMES [continued]: to experience their grief, but he's not.He's just saying that same story over and over again.And, I mean, I'm really worried that that's all that he'lldo when our time will be up.I'm feeling quite stuck with him.

    • 02:16:47

      NORMA JAMES [continued]: And I thought I'd bring that herebecause I don't know where to go from here.I really don't now where to go.

    • 02:16:55

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Can you freeze that a second?Can you hold that and you stay with that storysilently for a few minutes?And I'm really struck by her sayinghe goes over the same ground and I'm wondering if at least oneof them could take the repetitive himand start just walking around the group.

    • 02:17:15

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: Somehow just walking.I've noticed those thinking more about the bits of himthan about the bits of Norma somehow.And I was wondering if people could pick out

    • 02:17:36

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: the different parts of him because she spoke aboutall three parts of him really.I mean, maybe Norma could be him going round and round.And different bits of him could go and walk around with her?I am for this bit of him.And what happened to me is this and that.

    • 02:17:57

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: And then we stop them and see what happens.

    • 02:17:59


    • 02:18:00

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Does that sound?

    • 02:18:02

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Yes.I was sort of thinking about unspoken.And thinking about supposing they tried speakingwhat they think is unspoken.

    • 02:18:11

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Yes.Of his going around.Right.

    • 02:18:14

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: And of Norma's, too.

    • 02:18:16

      BRIGID PROCTOR: And of Norma's.

    • 02:18:16

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: What's unspoken.

    • 02:18:18

      BRIGID PROCTOR: What I'm really wondering aboutis whether Norma ought to be in it or sitting back and watchingit, whether it would help.I mean, she's stuck in [INAUDIBLE] gray area.She's neither in it nor is she out of it.And I wonder if you think she'd be better her being in itor out of it.

    • 02:18:37

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Should she have a choice?

    • 02:18:38

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Oh, that's a good idea.So right.You heard what we're talking about in general.And you've heard that the big issue iswe thought about doing something a bit active with thisand it's certainly going to bring diversity into the group.I mean, there may be some cricket fans,but they're not men.

    • 02:19:01

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: Would you prefer to go further in and experience him or wouldyou prefer that other people did that for you and you stayedoutside and heard and watched it?

    • 02:19:15

      NORMA JAMES: I think I'd like to stay outside and watch it.

    • 02:19:18

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Right.That's fine.Stick with the sense you have.

    • 02:19:24

      NORMA JAMES: Yes.

    • 02:19:25

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Because we can always at a later stage,if you want to go in, you can go in.

    • 02:19:28

      NORMA JAMES: Yes.

    • 02:19:29

      MIKE SIMMONS: So there's a bit of an issueabout what Norma does.Is she in or is she out, and then in the endyou leave her to make this choice.

    • 02:19:39

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Yes.And that is what I would normally do.I think it is another instance of where somehow feelingconstricted to do something that I'd planned to do beforehand.

    • 02:19:50

      MIKE SIMMONS: Right.

    • 02:19:51

      BRIGID PROCTOR: I'm sure it was a very wise choicethat she took to sit out with such a powerful exercise.To go in would have been overwhelming.And I think she recognized that.

    • 02:20:02

      MIKE SIMMONS: So she stayed whereit was safe and appropriate for her to be.

    • 02:20:06

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Yes.And where she could get a perspective on it.

    • 02:20:09

      MIKE SIMMONS: Yes.If she'd have been inside she'd havebeen overwhelmed and perhaps not learned very much.

    • 02:20:13

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Caught in that parallel process of goinground and round, I guess.

    • 02:20:17


    • 02:20:18

      BRIGID PROCTOR: So we know that you're going to just sit there.And we want other people to be on stage.This is the stage we have really.And I wonder if as you heard that storyyou could pick out different bits of him,not Norma at the moment, just him.

    • 02:20:40

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: And choose to identify with that particular bit of him.So has anyone got a bit they could identify with straightaway, or would like to try?Who's going to go first?

    • 02:20:54

      JULIA MARTIN: I just get a sense of a big rockof guild and shame.

    • 02:21:01

      BRIGID PROCTOR: So that's him really, isn't it?So I would like you to stand up for a minute.

    • 02:21:05


    • 02:21:05


    • 02:21:06

      JULIA MARTIN: OK.Yeah.I see it as being scrunched up.

    • 02:21:09

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Well, I want you to walk.

    • 02:21:10

      JULIA MARTIN: Stand up.Walk.

    • 02:21:11

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Because the image she used very stronglywas he goes round and round the same place kind of thing.So I somehow think to actually do it would be helpful.In you might have some information from inside there.

    • 02:21:25

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: You can crunch up in a walk.

    • 02:21:27

      JULIA MARTIN: OK.I just get the feeling of the guilt and the shame.[The Husband: The Guilty One] And I go around in circlesbecause I can't see a way out of it.

    • 02:21:38

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Right.So stand still a second.We'll get you doing that again.What part of him does anybody elsenotice as one of his sub-personalities, if you like?

    • 02:21:53

      JULIE JONES: Well, he couldn't sleep, could he?

    • 02:21:55

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Right.

    • 02:21:56

      JULIE JONES: [INAUDIBLE] so he wasunable to sleep because he was having night terrors?Yes.

    • 02:22:01

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Right.So if you'd like to stand up and put yourselfin relation to Julia.Right.And do a little bit of moving around.[The Husband: The Unsleeping One] OK.You can stop now.

    • 02:22:23

      LYNDA: I had his vision of him focusingon something unrelated to this relationshipwith his wife, the cricket.

    • 02:22:31

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Right.So you go and be the cricket fanaticin this little scenario.

    • 02:22:37

      LYNDA: Do I have to walk around? [The Husband: The CricketFanatic]

    • 02:22:40

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Not necessarily, no.Do what you think's right?Right.

    • 02:22:48

      MIKE SIMMONS: So he turns his backand it's as if we've lost him in some way.

    • 02:22:52

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: We haven't lost him.That back is very powerful.

    • 02:22:56

      MIKE SIMMONS: I guess so.We always have a sense of his presence within this sculpt.He's always there.

    • 02:23:04

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: He's always there.And somewhere there's the squareness of itthat seemed very, very powerful there.

    • 02:23:14

      MIKE SIMMONS: I guess turning your back on someoneis a powerful act, isn't it?

    • 02:23:22

      TESS BROOKS-SHEPPARD: I was reallystruck by the part of him that was just so shocked.He didn't do anything.He was frozen, that moment of seeing her.[The Husband: The Shocked One]

    • 02:23:32

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Right.So where would that be?

    • 02:23:38

      TESS BROOKS-SHEPPARD: In here, I think.

    • 02:23:40

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Right.

    • 02:23:41

      TESS BROOKS-SHEPPARD: With my arms outstretched.

    • 02:23:43

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Well, they're goingto go round and round because they don't stay still.So where can you be that allows them to do their going roundand round?

    • 02:23:60

      TESS BROOKS-SHEPPARD: I suppose maybe in between those two.

    • 02:24:02

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Right.

    • 02:24:03


    • 02:24:08

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Now you have to keep going round and round,you two.

    • 02:24:16

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Get them to speak from each part.

    • 02:24:22

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Now stop.And now I want you each to speak from where you are.What's happening for you?Tell us what's happening for you starting in orderthat you went.

    • 02:24:41

      JULIA MARTIN: I feel heavy.I feel encumbered. [The Husband: The Guilty One] Ican't free myself from any of it.

    • 02:24:52

      JULIE JONES: I'm [The Husband: The Unsleeping One] on you.I'm with you.I'm over you all the time, all the time permanently.Perpetual.Locked in.

    • 02:25:16

      JULIE JONES [continued]: You won't get rid of me.You won't get rid of me.

    • 02:25:24

      LYNDA: Oh my god.She's dead. [The Husband: The Cricket Fanatic]Let's just keep watching the television,watching the cricket.It'll be all right.Oh god.I don't know what to do.Just stay here.Just stay.Watch the television.It'll keep it normal.It'll keep it normal.Oh my god, what am I going to do?

    • 02:25:44

      TESS BROOKS-SHEPPARD: I'm frightened.[The Husband: The Shocked One] It's massive.It's crushing me.I can't move.I can't breathe.I can't do anything.My legs are like stone.

    • 02:26:03

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Is there anythingyou would like to ask any of those people?Or would you [INAUDIBLE]?

    • 02:26:13

      NORMA JAMES: I think I want to say to--

    • 02:26:15

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Get up.Get up.And stand at whatever distance.You don't have to go right up if you don't want.Wherever you want to stand in relationto the cricket watcher.

    • 02:26:29

      NORMA JAMES: I need to come closer to her.

    • 02:26:30

      BRIGID PROCTOR: All right.

    • 02:26:41

      NORMA JAMES: I think I want to say, don't be frightened.Don't be frightened.You did go back.You couldn't do it the first time, but you went back.

    • 02:27:06

      NORMA JAMES [continued]: And it's so heavy.And I couldn't say that to my client.

    • 02:27:18

      BRIGID PROCTOR: You couldn't say it to your real client.Freeze a second.

    • 02:27:28

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: I think there's also somethingthere about we parted, we had a row shopping and we parted.My last words were very unkind.

    • 02:27:42

      BRIGID PROCTOR: So notice in this sculpturethat we haven't had the angry man.And we haven't had the solicitor.And we don't have enough people in the groupto do that, so if you had an angry man and the solicitor,which are, I imagine some of his resourcefulnessin a way, what would you like to do with those two?

    • 02:28:04

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: How would you put those two?

    • 02:28:08

      NORMA JAMES: The angry man?

    • 02:28:09

      BRIGID PROCTOR: The angry man and the solicitor,the automatic doer and the angry man.

    • 02:28:25

      NORMA JAMES: The angry man shouldbe here facing because this is the opposite of his anger.

    • 02:28:32

      JULIA MARTIN: Guilt and shame.

    • 02:28:33

      NORMA JAMES: Yes. [The Husband: The Angry Man]Yes.That's where the angry, he shouldbe facing you and telling.

    • 02:28:48

      JULIA MARTIN: It already feels betterhaving someone look at me.

    • 02:28:52

      NORMA JAMES: Yes.As long as he's sitting here thisis going to go on, and on, and on.Because I'm angry with me and I'm angry for you.

    • 02:29:13

      NORMA JAMES [continued]: I'm angry with you for leaving me.

    • 02:29:24

      BRIGID PROCTOR: You being the wifewhen you say I'm angry with you for leaving me?

    • 02:29:27

      NORMA JAMES: Yes.You're the wife.You're my wife.And you shouldn't have gone.I'm feeling blame because if I hadn'twatched that sodding cricket then you might still be alive.And I'm angry because I had to run away.And the solicitor doesn't run away.

    • 02:29:48

      NORMA JAMES [continued]: [The Husband: The Solicitor] The solicitor always does his duty.And I did not do my duty by you.So I'm confused as well as angry.

    • 02:30:09

      BRIGID PROCTOR: And I think this is a very powerful exercise.Even role played people were amazingly engagedwith it, taken in to it really.As I watch it I feel very uneasy.It doesn't feel to me like an elegant piece of work at all.

    • 02:30:30

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: And I find myself feeding judged as Norma was probablyfeeling judged about work she didn't feel she was doing well.And all along the line I found myself making choices.

    • 02:30:52

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: And at the point where they were going round and roundI became aware that I'd made themgo round and around from my picture in my head from oneof my rules in sculpting would be that they know where to goand what to do, which they do.But my anxiety made them go [INAUDIBLE] been taken up

    • 02:31:13

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: with this round and round.And it felt to me that at that stage that they were justgoing to repeat the process that Norma had talked about.And I could see no resolution.And I realized how much I wanted there to be resolution,and I had an agenda in mind.And really it's rather important not to have an agenda in mind

    • 02:31:34

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: when you're doing an experiential exercise, I think.Is that right?

    • 02:31:37

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Yes.And yet you need to have some idea that you want somethingto happen as a result of it, because therewouldn't be any point in setting it up unless you want to see

    • 02:31:49

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Some movement.

    • 02:31:51

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Some movement, yes.

    • 02:31:52

      MIKE SIMMONS: But it sounds like you'resaying what you might have done is give themmore choice about what they wanted to do.

    • 02:31:59


    • 02:31:59

      MIKE SIMMONS: In that situation.

    • 02:32:01

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Yes.I knew at the time that I was feeling my way.And doing the next thing I thought might move things on.Watching it I'm extremely aware of that,and that somehow it's almost as if you're moving in the darkand just thinking what could the next thing

    • 02:32:22

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: be that might shed light for everybody, for me, everybody,Norma on this process.I mean, I suppose it kind of worked.That did happen.And I suppose you might call that the parallel process.But it doesn't make for elegant working.

    • 02:32:45

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: So we haven't got much more time.So I want you to unwind and go out again.And stand behind your chair.So you're right out of it.And I just want to re-role these people.I almost forgot her.I want to de-role these people.

    • 02:33:06

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: And then we can come back and seewhere you now stand with it.I'm going to de-role you first.I want you to walk away from that.What's your name?

    • 02:33:23

      JULIA MARTIN: Julia.

    • 02:33:25

      BRIGID PROCTOR: In what way do you identify with this man?And in what way are you different?

    • 02:33:35

      MIKE SIMMONS: And now you're de-roleing them?

    • 02:33:37

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Yes.I was struck how very powerful that was for all of themand for me.And I think in any experiential workit's extremely important for peopleto take the time to help people get back into themselves.

    • 02:33:59

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: And I don't think you should leave itunless you're satisfied they have done that in some way.

    • 02:34:05

      MIKE SIMMONS: I guess I was remindedof the start of the session, the very start of the session,the health and safety.This is how we're going to work.This is the arrangement.And it was almost like that was one book endand this was another book end bringing them back to safety.

    • 02:34:23

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Yes.That's very nice.Yes.I think that's right.So where are you now, Norma?[De-roleing has now taken place]

    • 02:34:34

      NORMA JAMES: Yes.I think able to go back and try and enter intohow he's feeling, not just what he's doing.

    • 02:34:48

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Right.Right.

    • 02:34:53

      NORMA JAMES: Because that's been hard.

    • 02:34:59

      BRIGID PROCTOR: And will it still be hard?

    • 02:35:01

      NORMA JAMES: Yes.Yeah.Because I came into this because somebody close to me had died.And it was a long, long time ago.And I thought that it was over.

    • 02:35:22

      NORMA JAMES [continued]: That I'd worked through it.But somehow this man has sent me backinto that same place of not beingable to do anything except go round, and round, and round it.

    • 02:35:48

      NORMA JAMES [continued]: Thank you.

    • 02:35:54

      BRIGID PROCTOR: So I really want to hearwhat you have to say about the intensity of thatbecause it seems to me that's where the feeling access is.

    • 02:36:04

      LYNDA: For me, as Lynda taking on the rolewhen I turned my chair around I wantedto demonstrate that the cricket watching was apart from him,that it wasn't a choice.That was the sense I picked up.However, when I was asked to respond from that part

    • 02:36:25

      LYNDA [continued]: I felt physically sick, very, very cold.And it was if I'd just gone into the kitchen and come out again,and I was sitting there overwhelmed by that feeling.And I guess that came out in my voicebecause I felt very panicky that I'd found,and I was tussling between this is an exercise that we're

    • 02:36:48

      LYNDA [continued]: doing, this a supervision.But the feelings were there.And I felt very, very shaky.I'm feeling much better now I've turned roundand I'm with the group and I'm hearing that I'm feeling safer,but I wanted to communicate that with you, Norma,that perhaps that was something that was going on for him now.

    • 02:37:12

      LYNDA [continued]: But when I was there I was in it.

    • 02:37:13

      BRIGID PROCTOR: And I really felt it.I mean, I thought I was going to cry.You only had said three words before it.I could feel the kind of-- that degree of,but it wasn't sickness.It was choking with grief really.Did you feel it?

    • 02:37:33


    • 02:37:37

      LYNDA: And I suppose thinking aboutthat it's sort of moving off a little bit,but it scares me a little bit as we're learning,and students, the intensity of some of the work we do.

    • 02:37:55

      BRIGID PROCTOR: I'm wondering about the focus.I want to say to you as being concerned for you,as carrying that, the others carried the frozen in a way,but you carries what wasn't expressed.Do you feel you will be able to leave that aside here?It's better when you turned round?It won't give you sleepless nights?

    • 02:38:16

      LYNDA: No.It won't give me sleepless nights.

    • 02:38:19

      BRIGID PROCTOR: I suppose that's what I'm concerned about.

    • 02:38:20

      LYNDA: No, I'm better.And as each moment is going on I'm feeling better.

    • 02:38:27

      BRIGID PROCTOR: And how about you?

    • 02:38:30

      NORMA JAMES: I think it will be better nowthat I know what it's about because that is whatI have to be with, is his pain.And I have done much on my work.It just threw me back.And I think there was something that I recognized about thisthat was so similar to mine and I thought, oh,

    • 02:38:55

      NORMA JAMES [continued]: I'd rather go round and round.

    • 02:38:57

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Yes.So in a way you could identify with the going round and round.

    • 02:39:03

      NORMA JAMES: Yes.

    • 02:39:04

      BRIGID PROCTOR: And you can sympathize and empathizewith that.

    • 02:39:07

      NORMA JAMES: Yes.

    • 02:39:11

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Which is not attractive.

    • 02:39:13

      NORMA JAMES: No.

    • 02:39:14

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Not stimulating.

    • 02:39:15

      NORMA JAMES: Yeah.But that's where I need to be with him.I'm not outside of him.And I chose to do that in this as well, didn't I?

    • 02:39:29

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Well, great.Because you know what you need.You have to trust what you need, not put it down.And the nice thing about moving exercisesis people do know, their bodies know,even if their head doesn't approve of it,their bodies know what they need to do.That's why when Francesca said give her the choice,I wasn't going to give her the choice.

    • 02:39:51

      BRIGID PROCTOR [continued]: I was going to have to make [INAUDIBLE]that I was feeling responsible for making the decision.

    • 02:39:57

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Yes.Well, it's not usually my option.I'm usually prefer to get on with the structureand move it suddenly seemed really important that you hadthe choice as to which you did.I think is very important to recognize that how easily,especially because we are tuned to empathy in many ways,

    • 02:40:21

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP [continued]: how easily we get into other peoples' [INAUDIBLE].

    • 02:40:23

      MIKE SIMMONS: And you're just giving them the time to reflecton the power of what they've experienced.

    • 02:40:28

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Yes.And again very, very important to do that.

    • 02:40:32

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Yes, because it's almostpart of the de-roleing, I think, isn't it?To be able to then talk about the process a bit,which enables them to stand outside it, instead of being

    • 02:40:42

      BRIGID PROCTOR: We're outside the magnetic fieldat that time.

    • 02:40:45

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Yes.Right.Right inside.Yes.And to develop that observer.Somehow it is so important for them on reflectionreally to be able to have that observer thatcan stand outside and see.

    • 02:40:57

      MIKE SIMMONS: And I guess for me there'ssomething about watching that bit of the process, the justreflecting on what have we gone through,that made me think how important itis for counselors, for trainers, for supervisors to havean awareness about time, that it's always a temptation,or maybe just for me to cram lots of things in.

    • 02:41:20

      MIKE SIMMONS [continued]: You cram lots of things in, they can't be processed.And often the processing part is vital,perhaps always, it's vital.

    • 02:41:30

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: So maybe this should be a health warning,don't start anything unless you know you've got time to processit.

    • 02:41:36

      MIKE SIMMONS: Yes.

    • 02:41:38

      BRIGID PROCTOR: If people have come right outside the exerciseand are able to reflect on it from a dispassionate place.

    • 02:41:45

      MIKE SIMMONS: Brilliant, Francesca.It's been an extraordinary day.We've watched this video on what mustbe one of the hottest days of the year in this studio.It's been fascinating to watch how you workedand to hear how you reflect on your work.

    • 02:42:08

      MIKE SIMMONS [continued]: Thank you very much.

    • 02:42:09

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Thank you very much for giving usthe opportunity.

    • 02:42:11

      FRANCESCA INSKIPP: Yes.Thank you.It's been a wonderful opportunityto work and thank your technician Rob for his help.

    • 02:42:17

      BRIGID PROCTOR: Endless patience.

    • 02:42:19


    • 02:42:21


Creative Group Supervision

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This film examines creative group supervision in the context of counseling and psychotherapy. Along with client presentations, exercises are provided to enhance the counselor’s professional and personal development and relations with clients. The importance of building a working alliance among the group and working rules are discussed.

Creative Group Supervision

This film examines creative group supervision in the context of counseling and psychotherapy. Along with client presentations, exercises are provided to enhance the counselor’s professional and personal development and relations with clients. The importance of building a working alliance among the group and working rules are discussed.

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