Counseling Skills and Techniques: Substance Abuse and Addiction Counseling

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    • 00:00

      [MUSIC PLAYING][Counseling Skills and Techniques:Substance Abuse and Addiction Counseling]

    • 00:11

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Kelsie, thanks for being part of this project.[Lorraine Hedtke, MSW, ACSW, LCSW, Ph.D. Program Coordinator& Associate Professor California State University San Bernadino]

    • 00:14

      KELSIE MCGEE: Of course.Yeah.

    • 00:16

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: So usually when Ihave a counseling conversation, Idon't do it in front of cameras.So it might flavor what it is that we speak about.[Acknowledging the context]And because this is a semi-public venue,I just want to make sure that you feel comfortable in lettingme know if anything I ask you is not something you

    • 00:37

      LORRAINE HEDTKE [continued]: want to speak about publicly.Can you give me that feedback so wecan talk about something in a slightly different direction?

    • 00:44

      KELSIE MCGEE: Definitely.

    • 00:45


    • 00:45

      KELSIE MCGEE: Yeah.

    • 00:46

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Great.Thanks.That's helpful for me.I just want to make sure that this feels all right for you aswell.So when you volunteered to be a part of this project also,there must have been something that was spurring you onto come talk with me.And so I'm wondering a little bit.Can we start there-- you just telling meabout what was in your mind?

    • 01:07

      KELSIE MCGEE: Yeah.It came at a really good point in my life, I guess.About two months ago my sister-- we found out she'sbeen addicted to some drugs.And she was arrested.And so it's just been me trying to navigateby myself that situation.So that's definitely why I thought

    • 01:27

      KELSIE MCGEE [continued]: this would be a good idea.

    • 01:29

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: It's a big thing to navigate.

    • 01:30

      KELSIE MCGEE: Yeah.It's been the first time I've had to.So it's been hard.

    • 01:35

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: OK.I can imagine that it would be really difficult. Can I ask youa couple of specific questions so I can understandwhat that means for you?

    • 01:44

      KELSIE MCGEE: Yeah.

    • 01:46

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: This is your younger sister?

    • 01:47

      KELSIE MCGEE: My youngest sister.

    • 01:48

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Youngest sister.How many kids?

    • 01:50

      KELSIE MCGEE: So there's three of us.

    • 01:52


    • 01:53

      KELSIE MCGEE: I'm the oldest.

    • 01:53

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: You're the eldest?All three girls?

    • 01:55

      KELSIE MCGEE: Three girls.

    • 01:56

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: OK.And this is your baby sister.

    • 01:57

      KELSIE MCGEE: My baby sister.

    • 01:58

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Can I ask her first name?

    • 01:59

      KELSIE MCGEE: Her name's Kylie.

    • 01:60

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Kylie, OK.So great.So are you all Ks?

    • 02:04

      KELSIE MCGEE: We're all Ks.

    • 02:05

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: You're all Ks.

    • 02:07

      KELSIE MCGEE: Kelsie, Katelyn, Kylie.

    • 02:09

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: And when Kylie got arrested,was that the first you knew of her drug usage?Or was it something else?

    • 02:19

      KELSIE MCGEE: We've known--I've known that she's been dabblinghere and there, experimenting.She's kind of been the rebellious and free spiritof the family ever since probably middle schooland high school.So it wasn't a huge surprise that she had tried something.But that was the first time we knew that she wasin a serious problem with it.

    • 02:41

      KELSIE MCGEE [continued]: I hadn't known she had been using this substance at all.

    • 02:43

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: OK.OK, yeah.So this came as a surprise and a shock to you.

    • 02:48

      KELSIE MCGEE: Yes.Yeah.

    • 02:50

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: You were talkingabout how you've been trying over the last couple of monthsto navigate this.[Listening]And I'm wondering what kind of navigationyou're speaking about there.

    • 03:00

      KELSIE MCGEE: I think with me being a counselingstudent, the actual addiction part of itand the education about it, I understand.So it's mostly been about navigating my familyand helping them through it.Because they've never experienced anythinglike this either.They've kind of been looking at me as like you'rethe counseling student.

    • 03:21

      KELSIE MCGEE [continued]: You have to-- assuming I have all the knowledgein the world about it.And that's probably what's been the most--one of the most difficult things about the situation.

    • 03:29

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Can you tell me a little bitabout what it is that you think that they'relooking to you for?[Inquiry into relationship values]

    • 03:37

      KELSIE MCGEE: I think it's different with eachof my family members.I think my sister--my other sister-- she lives across the country.And so she feels removed from the situation.So she keeps trying to involve herself in a good way.She wants to know what's going on, how she can help.And I'm just like go live your life.

    • 03:58

      KELSIE MCGEE [continued]: We got it covered.We're good.Focus on you.And then I think my mom is just--she's just looking for--she's probably more still lookingfor guidance in terms of what to do.Because the week after she was arrested,we flew out there for--like we dropped everything, and we flew out for five days just

    • 04:21

      KELSIE MCGEE [continued]: to kind of get things in order.And I was just like the glue holding all of thatand holding her together.So I think for her it's like the guidance and supports.And then my dad--I don't know.My dad's a different character, I guess.I try to keep him even keeled.Because he can become temperamentalat times and angry.

    • 04:41

      KELSIE MCGEE [continued]: And I have to bring him down and explain to him what'sgoing on in that sort of a way.

    • 04:49

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: So I have this imagein my mind of you trying to balance plates.[Paraphrase-- The balancing plates metaphor]Yeah.

    • 04:55

      KELSIE MCGEE: Yeah.

    • 04:56

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: That each one of these plateshas had a different spinning cycle that you'vebeen trying to keep going.Is that--

    • 05:05

      KELSIE MCGEE: Yeah, I can see that in my head right now.

    • 05:07

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Yeah.And is this also right that your sister who got arrested,who's been having the difficulties,doesn't live locally?

    • 05:15

      KELSIE MCGEE: No, she doesn't.She lives in another state as well.

    • 05:18

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: So that's complicated matters.

    • 05:20

      KELSIE MCGEE: Yes, it has.

    • 05:21


    • 05:22

      KELSIE MCGEE: Considerably

    • 05:23

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Yeah.What's been the effect for you in havingto keep those plates spinning and interacting differentlywith both your mom and your dad and your two sisters you think?[Exploring the effects for Kelsie]

    • 05:37

      KELSIE MCGEE: I think the first maybe two weeksof the situation, I was OK.I think I was in an adrenaline mode.We need to get this done and get things in orderand get her in a rehab if that's what's possible.Let's get it done.I was very narrow-minded and focused.And maybe about after a couple of weeks,I felt myself starting to really pull away from my family.

    • 05:58

      KELSIE MCGEE [continued]: Avoiding phone calls because I didn't want to hear updates.I was worried.If I see my mom, I'm like, what happened to Kylie?Did she relapse again?Is she arrested again?I didn't want to do that.I was avoiding my dad because he would get angryabout my mom doing something.And then my sister just always wanted to be filled in.And I just didn't--

    • 06:19

      KELSIE MCGEE [continued]: I don't want to talk about it.So I really removed myself from my family.Because I live about an hour from my parents too,so I was able to try and do that at least.

    • 06:28

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: And create some space.

    • 06:29

      KELSIE MCGEE: Yeah, space.

    • 06:30

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Yeah.When you were taking space, what kinds of thingswere you thinking about?[Curiosity]

    • 06:38

      KELSIE MCGEE: I was just thinking about my life, whichI know it's a good thing.I know I needed to have done that.But then I felt guilty at the same time.But I was thinking like I was working.I had to finish for graduation.I still had classes to do.So I was really just trying to focus on my life.

    • 06:56

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: OK.Was the focusing on your life--at the same time, were you telling yourselfother things about what you should or shouldn't be doing?

    • 07:06

      KELSIE MCGEE: Oh, yes.

    • 07:07


    • 07:07

      KELSIE MCGEE: Yeah.

    • 07:08

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: I just am kind of curiousabout those other dialogues that might have beenrunning at that time for you.

    • 07:13

      KELSIE MCGEE: Yeah, it was kind of like identifymyself like, oh, like a good daughter would do this.A good sister would do this.And those kinds of things going through my mindso that the guilt was definitely a part of it.Shame was there, in a sense, for me pulling away.

    • 07:34

      KELSIE MCGEE [continued]: I felt bad about that.I guess like shameful in a way.

    • 07:38

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Yeah.Did you have the experience of feeling like youwere letting somebody down?

    • 07:42

      KELSIE MCGEE: Oh, yeah.Yeah.

    • 07:44

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Yeah.How did you learn to feel that way?[Identifying discourses working on Kelsie]

    • 07:51

      KELSIE MCGEE: I guess I learned maybein the absence of doing that.I was always the--I was the oldest child.I was the role model, I guess, the responsible one,the one who's always done the right thing at the right timeat the right pace.And so I guess I would normally be that one whowould be there all the time.

    • 08:12

      KELSIE MCGEE [continued]: And so when I wasn't that, I was kindof feeling like I'm not normally the type to do this in a way.I felt conflicting with myself.

    • 08:22

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: That there is a place of your wantingto be responsible and step in right into the middle to fix.[Family norms]

    • 08:28

      KELSIE MCGEE: Yeah.

    • 08:29

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: And another force that was saying, no.You need time to do what's important to you.

    • 08:35

      KELSIE MCGEE: Yes.

    • 08:36

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: So tell me.As time went on, how did you grapple with these things?

    • 08:43

      KELSIE MCGEE: I think with time, it just became easier--I guess in a sense--with just life moving on and things coming up.And we just had to deal with some stuff.We did have to put her in a rehab.So dealing with that--I guess with the logistics of life,I guess, just kind of trucking on, if that makes sense.

    • 09:05

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Were there skills and abilitiesthat you drew on during that time to not goone direction over the other?[Identification of skills]

    • 09:16

      KELSIE MCGEE: Probably.I think I like to pride myself on being a veryrealistic and logical person.But obviously, you can't have control.And so I really had to pull myself back a lot.I felt out of control.And I don't like that feeling.So I did pull back on, I mean, little things

    • 09:37

      KELSIE MCGEE [continued]: like breathing techniques even--things like that when things get a little too overwhelming.And just trying to talk myself down a lot.I would get ahead of myself a lot.Well, what if this happens?And then what if that happens?And I had to pull myself back a lot.But I was able to do so.

    • 09:55

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: So part of it, Kelsie,was when you pulled yourself backwas about creating some place of center?

    • 10:01

      KELSIE MCGEE: Yeah.Yes.

    • 10:03

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Yeah.And the impact of that centering was what?

    • 10:08

      KELSIE MCGEE: I think it was good.It needed to happen in order to reduce the sense of anxietyand overwhelming.Yeah.

    • 10:19

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Yeah, yeah.And can you tell me about what you have drawn onto be able to center yourself?

    • 10:29

      KELSIE MCGEE: Hm.[Review of learnings that underlie skills]My thought drawn on past experiences where I haven'tbeen able to center myself.I've gone through my own issues of anxiety.And so I've had to deal with those feelings before.And so pulling those back and not thinking too far ahead

    • 10:51

      KELSIE MCGEE [continued]: about a situation.That's what I try to tell my family as well.But I was trying to do it at the same time.I was trying to teach them how to do it while I was alsotrying to do it.

    • 11:02

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: And how did that work for you?

    • 11:04

      KELSIE MCGEE: It was OK.Sometimes I felt like maybe I wasbeing kind of like telling them to do something which I wasstill struggling with myself.

    • 11:12

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Yeah, OK.When anxiety had in the past captured your attentionand started wanting to call some of the shots,what kinds of things would you do or say to yourselfto fight back against anxiety?

    • 11:30

      KELSIE MCGEE: I really tried to just stay in the moment.Because that's where all of that came from.It was just future worry that I'd not have control over.So self-talk was actually probably a big thing.It was like, Kelsie, this isn't happening right now.What are you so concerned of?Let's focus on what we have to do.

    • 11:51

      KELSIE MCGEE [continued]: I did a lot of lists to make sure.Because I would worry about thingsdue in two months or things I had to do a week from nowwhen that wasn't a priority.

    • 12:01

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: OK.Can you tell me about the voice of Kelsie,this isn't happening right now?[Curiosity]Where did that voice come from?

    • 12:12

      KELSIE MCGEE: To be quite honest,I've read a lot of books on worry and anxiety.So I think when I was reading those,I formed this talk with questions and statementsfrom there as well.Try to keep it a calm voice.

    • 12:27


    • 12:28

      KELSIE MCGEE: It's my own voice.

    • 12:29

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Is she a she voice?

    • 12:31

      KELSIE MCGEE: She is a she.She's me.

    • 12:32

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: She's you.

    • 12:33

      KELSIE MCGEE: She's me.

    • 12:35

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Is she a part of Kelsie that you know well?[Externalizing]

    • 12:40

      KELSIE MCGEE: Getting to know her better.I guess I would say that.

    • 12:44

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: OK.Can you introduce me to her?

    • 12:48

      KELSIE MCGEE: Sure, yeah.

    • 12:52

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: What do you think her hopes arefor Kelsie's life?

    • 12:58

      KELSIE MCGEE: Probably the biggest thing is to be presentand to not let worry and anxiety control her life--my life.

    • 13:09

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Is she able to keep anxiety and worryat bay for your life?

    • 13:17

      KELSIE MCGEE: Not all the time.But it can work.

    • 13:20


    • 13:21

      KELSIE MCGEE: She works.

    • 13:22

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Does she know skills and tricksto manage it when it does--

    • 13:26

      KELSIE MCGEE: Yeah.She knows some words and things that help.

    • 13:30

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Sounds like it.Is she a good counselor to you?

    • 13:36

      KELSIE MCGEE: Yes.I think so.She's kind of like my internal counselor.

    • 13:39

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: I got it.

    • 13:40

      KELSIE MCGEE: Yeah.

    • 13:40

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Yeah.So when the internal counselor let you have that spaceand encouraged you to have that space while you were learningthese new things in your family, what guidancewas she giving you that was useful?

    • 13:56

      KELSIE MCGEE: She was telling me it was OK.I was kind of in my own battle with that.But she was telling me this is what you need.You have things to worry about on your own.Your family will be fine.Just as much as I need a space to think about it,they need their own space to think about it tooand to navigate it on their own.

    • 14:18

      KELSIE MCGEE [continued]: She tells me that I didn't need to be the only one helping themthrough this.

    • 14:23

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Is she one of the navigation toolsthat you have?

    • 14:27

      KELSIE MCGEE: Yeah.

    • 14:27

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Yeah.She's your internal GPS?

    • 14:29

      KELSIE MCGEE: Like a little guide.Yeah, yeah.

    • 14:31

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: And when she wassaying those kinds of things to you,would you notice any kind of particular effects of that?

    • 14:38

      KELSIE MCGEE: Sometimes I would feel--quite honestly, I would feel a heaviness in my chestwhen it was the anxiety part.

    • 14:45


    • 14:46

      KELSIE MCGEE: And then the self-talk would happen.And most times, I would feel a sense of relief.Again, sometimes I was in a battlewith what she was saying and not really agreeing with itor not thinking it was 100% what I should do.But most times, I can feel like an actual huh.

    • 15:05

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Like an exhale.

    • 15:07

      KELSIE MCGEE: Like an exhale.

    • 15:07

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Like an exhale.

    • 15:08

      KELSIE MCGEE: Yeah.Shoulders going down kind of a thing.

    • 15:12

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: And in that exhale, what's there?What meaning do you make out of that?[Asking about meaning]

    • 15:18

      KELSIE MCGEE: Calm, a sense of calmness.

    • 15:21

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Yeah, yeah.Is that calm--I imagine that that calmness is quite welcomewhen you're fighting the battle with worry or anxiety.

    • 15:31

      KELSIE MCGEE: Yes, it's a wanted feeling.

    • 15:33

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: It's a wanted feeling, sure.I can imagine that.I'm curious about when worry and anxiety was or is tryingto call the shots, like when you were first discoveringabout your sister's arrest and the drug usage,what impact do worry and anxiety have in how

    • 15:55

      LORRAINE HEDTKE [continued]: you interacted with people?

    • 15:56

      KELSIE MCGEE: I was mean.I was mean, like very snappy, very short.And then that would cause problems in and of itself.I mean, I was so anxious and worried.And then it just would escalate.My family, at the same time--that's why I wanted to pull away.Because I didn't want to act like that.

    • 16:17

      KELSIE MCGEE [continued]: They already had so much going onwith their youngest daughter.I didn't want to add to that.So I kind of pulled away.

    • 16:25

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: So even while worrying and anxiety wascalling the shots, were you also observing the effect of worryand anxiety?

    • 16:33

      KELSIE MCGEE: I'd say I definitely noticed it.It didn't really change it at first.But I definitely would notice it.I'd get off a phone call and be like I shouldn't have snappedlike that sort of a thing.

    • 16:45

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: What was that about--was that a statement about you that you wantedto be different with them?

    • 16:51

      KELSIE MCGEE: Yeah.Yes, definitely.

    • 16:53

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: And what was that differencethat you wanted to be with them?[Meaning lies in difference]

    • 16:59

      KELSIE MCGEE: I wanted to be supportive and helpfuland just be whatever they needed at the time, whatever formthat would have taken, I guess.

    • 17:13

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Why is that, that youwant to be those things?

    • 17:22

      KELSIE MCGEE: Because I don't know.That's what I'm supposed to do.I mean, they're my family.So I care so much about them.And I feel like--I guess, with my education and experiences I've had,I have a greater understanding of the situation than they do.And I want to help them navigate that.

    • 17:43

      KELSIE MCGEE [continued]: But then I realize I was overwhelming myselfwith doing that as well.But for them, they don't--I don't know.They just don't understand it, I think, in the waythat they should.And so I--

    • 17:54

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Is there anyone in your life thathelps remind you about the internal counselorpresent in your life?[Inquiry into relational basis of knowledge]

    • 18:05

      KELSIE MCGEE: I do have a really good friend who--actually, she is a counselor.So sometimes I talk with her about a lot of this stuff.And I think a lot of things she says, internal Kelsie picks upon it as well, which can be and has been very helpful.

    • 18:21

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Your friend, whatwould she appreciate about the internal Kelsie desires to bekind to her family you think?

    • 18:30

      KELSIE MCGEE: Oh, she would definitelywant me to be and appreciate-- she knowsthat it's important to me.And so I know that would make it important to her as well.

    • 18:38

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Yeah, yeah.Does she then give you-- your friend--does she give you words or notice whenit is that you do those kinds of thingsthat you hold on to as important?

    • 18:52

      KELSIE MCGEE: Yeah.She'll kind of-- and when something does happen,she's just always the first person there.And when something's off, she knows it,and she'll help me through it.But when something's on, she'll be like oh, that's good.You guys are getting along.And keep it going like that.

    • 19:09

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: OK, OK, yeah.What's it like for you to have an outsiderwitness in that way?

    • 19:14

      KELSIE MCGEE: It's helpful.It's definitely very helpful.Sometimes I feel like I want to navigate it alone.I don't know.Maybe I'm contradicting myself in everything that I'm saying.But sometimes I feel like it shouldn't beanybody else's burden in a way.And not that she's ever--or anyone's ever expressed that it is a burden.

    • 19:34

      KELSIE MCGEE [continued]: But other people have their own stuff going on.They shouldn't have to worry about me or my family.

    • 19:41

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Does internal Kelsie--that's a counselor-- the internal counselor Kelsie,I don't know which order you would prefer that in.Does she pride herself on being competent?

    • 19:54

      KELSIE MCGEE: Yeah.Yeah, I'd say so.

    • 19:56

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: And would it be fair to saythat she prides herself on being able to navigatethings that are difficult?

    • 20:03

      KELSIE MCGEE: Yes, with time.She's proved herself.

    • 20:06

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: OK, OK.Sometimes has that been a burden to youthat she's able to hold all that?

    • 20:17

      KELSIE MCGEE: Yeah.Yeah, I'd say so.

    • 20:19


    • 20:21

      KELSIE MCGEE: There's like this gap.

    • 20:22


    • 20:23

      KELSIE MCGEE: There's this gap between meand how I'm actually feeling--kind of in the moment with this gapof what internal Kelsie counselor knowsand what she should do.Does that makes sense?

    • 20:36

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Yeah.So how is it then that you manage to navigate that divide?

    • 20:46

      KELSIE MCGEE: Quite honestly, I don't know.I think I'm still trying to figure it out.I think it's--I've had to really learn to trust, I think, the experiencesI've had and what I have had to go throughand that I have come out on the other side navigating terrainthat I'm not used to.But it doesn't always come so easy.

    • 21:07

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Yeah.This is an area where you don't have a map, is it?

    • 21:11


    • 21:12

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Yeah.So you're drawing the map as you go.

    • 21:15

      KELSIE MCGEE: Yeah.

    • 21:16


    • 21:17

      KELSIE MCGEE: And I'm drawing it for others as well.

    • 21:19

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: That there's other players on your mapand you on theirs.

    • 21:23

      KELSIE MCGEE: I don't want them to get lost,using that metaphor.

    • 21:27

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Yeah.Does that make you the tour guide of the new terrain?

    • 21:34

      KELSIE MCGEE: Yeah, definitely.

    • 21:36

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: So is internal Kelsie also a tour guide?

    • 21:38

      KELSIE MCGEE: She's my tour guide.

    • 21:40

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: She's your tour guide.

    • 21:41

      KELSIE MCGEE: So then I become other's tour guides as well,like a hierarchy maybe.

    • 21:46

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: If internal counselor Kelsiewere to help you map the next steps of this new terrain,what do you think that she would suggest?

    • 21:60

      KELSIE MCGEE: I think she would suggestI need to check in on everybody first,kind of see where they're at in this situation.Maybe they're doing a lot better than I think they are.

    • 22:11


    • 22:12

      KELSIE MCGEE: Or maybe they're not.Or maybe they do have other resourcesthat they've been using that I haven't known aboutor that I could even use.So probably the first step would beto check in with each of them.Be like, how are you doing with this situation?

    • 22:27

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: OK, yeah.And what would that be like for you, Kelsie, to do that?

    • 22:31

      KELSIE MCGEE: I think it'd be OK.I mean, I definitely feel comfortable doing it.It's just, to me, the fear is always like somethingbigger comes up.And it's like now we have to deal with this.

    • 22:42

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Right.And if that were, in fact, the case,you check in with your sister, either of your sistersor either of your parents.And they say that this massive thing is now here.What would internal counselor Kelsie reassure you about?

    • 23:01

      KELSIE MCGEE: Stay present.Deal with things as they come.I'm like that checklist person.So it would just be get this done, then this.Because my mom tends to be--I mean, I take after her very much in the sense that theworry about well what if XYZ, PQ, and then whatever happened?

    • 23:25

      KELSIE MCGEE [continued]: And so I've had to be the one to tell her, slow down.But I need to do that as well.

    • 23:31


    • 23:32

      KELSIE MCGEE: So I'm kind of like the teacher in that.But I also need to be the student.

    • 23:35

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Yes.So the internal counselor has a very strong roleto step in when worry and anxiety pops upboth with your mother and with you.

    • 23:46

      KELSIE MCGEE: Yeah.Double duty.

    • 23:48

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Double duty, yeah.Do you imagine that the internal counselor parts of youhas the skill and ability and knowledgeto manage that kind of battle with worry and anxiety?

    • 24:03

      KELSIE MCGEE: Yeah.I definitely think so.It's harder said than done sometimes.

    • 24:08

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: So the first step would be--in that harder said than done experience--would be to check in with everybodyand see how they're doing and what resourcesthey're drawing on.

    • 24:19

      KELSIE MCGEE: That's kind of like ground zero.

    • 24:21

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Ground zero.And would you be looking for any surprises about how they'vebeen doing well with this?

    • 24:28

      KELSIE MCGEE: I would love to hear that they're doing wellwith it.[Surprises are entry points to difference]Another level of everything--just to tack on to it-- is the past couple of years,my parent's relationship hasn't been the best.And so another fear of mine in all of thisand why I don't really ask about it is I worry.Because I know that this is really hard on--

    • 24:50

      KELSIE MCGEE [continued]: addiction is a family disease.It's really hard.My worry is well, how are they doing in their relationship?And they might be--this might have bonded them more.I'm still worried to check in on that aspect as well.

    • 25:04

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Is that also a statementabout your concern for your family?Yes, yeah, yeah.A statement of caring for them?

    • 25:15

      KELSIE MCGEE: Mm-hmm.

    • 25:16

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Yeah.So internal counselor who's navigatingin this new terrain, what would be the next step shewould ask you to do?

    • 25:29

      KELSIE MCGEE: So check in with the family, I guess,was the first thing.Well, I mean, if something is--I mean, if something comes up, we've got to deal with it,I guess.But if nothing comes up and they're all like we're good.We're taking it one day at a time too.I guess the next step is then stop worrying.I don't know.

    • 25:50

      KELSIE MCGEE [continued]: It's kind of clear cut about it.OK, everyone's good.I'll check in another week or so.And then everything's good.Stop worrying.

    • 25:59

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: If you knew that they were doing OK,your worry could get pushed further away from you.Keep it further at bay.OK, OK.If you knew that somebody in your family wasn't doing OKand that you could respond effectively to that,would that have the same impact of being able to push worryfurther away?

    • 26:19

      KELSIE MCGEE: Yeah, I think I could.Is what you're asking about be able to?Yeah, I do.Things are lessening anyway.So I think it's a little easier to step into that role now,I'd say.

    • 26:32

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: I was just wonderingif either direction you go, if worryends up being further away as you'renavigating new territory.

    • 26:41

      KELSIE MCGEE: OK, I see what you mean.I don't know.I mean, if something comes up and something's wrong,I don't know how I could completely get ridof the worry and anxiety.

    • 26:53

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Kelsie, have therebeen times over the last two or three monthswhen things have been difficult that the presence of worryor the presence of anxiousness--has it been a benefit as well?

    • 27:08

      KELSIE MCGEE: I definitely think it has.I think the first time, the worry just about my sister,is she OK?That week it happened, my mom and Iwere able to take that worry.And we went down there.And we got everything sorted out, which I think reallyhelped her.And we brought her back to come to a rehab facility.So I think that was helpful.

    • 27:28

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Before you go on,let me just ask something about that.Did the worry help you and your mother create action quickly?

    • 27:36

      KELSIE MCGEE: Yes.

    • 27:36


    • 27:37

      KELSIE MCGEE: I mean, it was that we were just so worriedthat we just had to go do it.

    • 27:40

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Right.[INTERPOSING VOICES]And the worry-- what's in the worry?What's the caring that's in the worry?Or the concern that's in the worry?[Complexity -- worry includes concern]

    • 27:58

      KELSIE MCGEE: I mean, in regards to my baby sister,I want her to be OK.

    • 28:02


    • 28:04

      KELSIE MCGEE: She's so young.She's 20 years old.And having to kind of figure all this out,that's definitely the hardest part--knowing that this is now her life with the possibility of--I mean, is there going to be jail time?Is there going to be-- is she going to relapse again?

    • 28:25

      KELSIE MCGEE [continued]: I mean, is she going to be fantastic?She could be.But it's that unknown.It's that unknown that is the biggest--what's weighing, I think.

    • 28:38

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: The part of you thatis able to navigate new terrain that you've never seen before--is there anything there that you wouldwant to share with your baby sister about how to do that?

    • 28:51

      KELSIE MCGEE: If I knew how to put it into words, yes.I don't know if I--I don't really know what I'm doing.I'm just kind of--I mean, I know it in some--I do know what I'm doing.I'm just not sure how I would be able to phrase itto her in a helpful way.

    • 29:11

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: In a helpful way.Because what would you want her to hear?

    • 29:16

      KELSIE MCGEE: That I'm here for her.And no matter what happens, I'm going to be here for her.And that we'll get through it, even though wedon't know what we're doing.

    • 29:30

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: The impact of that for herwould be what you would hope?

    • 29:36

      KELSIE MCGEE: Well, I know she feels a lot of shame and guilt.So my hope would be to alleviate that.I don't blame her for anything.I don't look at her any differently, any less.But my fear is that that's what she thinks.

    • 29:52

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: OK, right.So your hope would be that your standing alongside herwould lessen that experience of feelinglike she's let you down?

    • 30:03

      KELSIE MCGEE: So actually, as a matter of fact,I'm flying out there in a couple of daysto see her again and be with her.She asked me to come out.She's in culinary school.So she has this big final presentationwith desserts and stuff.And so she asked me to come out.And so I said, heck yes.I will be there.

    • 30:20

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: OK.I'm really curious about what you're hoping your tripto stand by your sister as she makesthese culinary experiences will mean to her.[Curiosity]

    • 30:33

      KELSIE MCGEE: I'm hoping they show her that I am thereand will be there for her always.I mean, I'm not always going to be able to take offat the drop of a hat.But luckily, I am on summer vacation from work.And I'm able to do it.So I want her to see that I'm willing and will continueto put myself out there for her, no matter the cost

    • 30:54

      KELSIE MCGEE [continued]: or whatever it is.And I hope that inspires her to keep going with her pathto sobriety.

    • 31:03

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: When she's showing you what she makes--and she makes sweets?

    • 31:07

      KELSIE MCGEE: She does pastry.She does pastry arts.

    • 31:10

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: OK.When she's showing you the pastries,what do you think she's hoping that you'll noticeabout what she does well?

    • 31:19

      KELSIE MCGEE: I'm hoping--I think she wants us to be proud of her.She'll send us text messages of things she makes--pictures of it and stuff.And I don't think she would do that if she didn't wantto hear what we have to say about itand show a sense of that we are proud of herand excited for her.So I hope it just-- with me beingthere-- my dad might come too.

    • 31:42

      KELSIE MCGEE [continued]: That's another thing I'm trying to be.I think this will be really good for herif you show this support as well.Because their relationship has gotten a lot rockier as well.So I'm hoping she sees that we're here for her.We're family.You're not a screw up.

    • 31:57

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Yeah.So internal counseling Kelsie, what kinds of thingswill you take on this trip to give to your little sister youthink?

    • 32:10

      KELSIE MCGEE: Just an understanding.I think showing her that I'm going to be really just open.And if something is going on, you can talk to me.I think so.

    • 32:21

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Do you have a sense about what differencethis will make in your life-- this trip?

    • 32:27

      KELSIE MCGEE: I haven't thought about that.It was just really like what's going to be good for her.But I guess yeah.At the same time, I think hopefully thiswill bring a new dynamic to our relationship.Because like I said, she was kind of the one flounderingand on her own path and kind of removed herselffrom the family, even before all this happened.

    • 32:48

      KELSIE MCGEE [continued]: And so I've kind of lost that type of relationship with her.So I'm hoping this will be kind of a start--the restart, the rebirth of our sister relationship.

    • 32:59

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: So what would that look like?If you-- in the investment of the rebirthing of a sisterlyrelationship--can you tell me where you would hopeit would grow on this new terrainin the next bit of your life?[How to be a sister]

    • 33:16

      KELSIE MCGEE: I just want her to beable to talk to me about anything.Call me up.Let me know how your life's going.That's been something that's really missing.And that's something I have with my other sister.And so I don't mean to compare the relationships, but I don't.For a year, I barely knew anythingthat was going on with Kylie.And so that's why when all this happened, it was such a shock.

    • 33:38

      KELSIE MCGEE [continued]: Because we didn't have that relationship.So I just want her to be able to feel that she can call meand say, hey, this happened today.It was really cool.Or this happened today, and it sucked.And I want your advice or your opinion.And she actually did that last night.

    • 33:52

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Did she?

    • 33:53

      KELSIE MCGEE: She did.She called me and said she had to work on an online portfoliofor her program.And she was like, I'm not sure what to put in the bio.Can you help me?Yes.

    • 34:04

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: So what was that like for herto call you last night?

    • 34:08

      KELSIE MCGEE: It was--it sounds so little, but it really meant everything to methat she thought of me as the person who could help her.

    • 34:17

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Yeah.The part of you that wants to be her big sister?

    • 34:21

      KELSIE MCGEE: Yeah.

    • 34:22

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Did that speak to you in that way?

    • 34:24

      KELSIE MCGEE: Yeah.I'm crying right now, so yeah, it did.I didn't really think about it maybe in the moment.But reflecting on it right now, Ithink that was a big step for her, which makesme appreciate it so much more.

    • 34:34

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Yeah.And the tenderness that you're noticingin that moment, what do you hold as precious right there?

    • 34:41

      KELSIE MCGEE: Just that she's still my baby sister.And she's going to need help.And I'm going to be there for her.

    • 34:48

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Yeah, yeah.Let me pause for a second.Because I've asked you an awful lot of questions.And it all has been at a pretty rapid pace.I'm wondering what it's like for youto be processing the thoughts and wherethe movement starts shifting.

    • 35:08

      KELSIE MCGEE: OK.It is weird being on this side of the counseling table,I guess.[Invitation to reflect on the process]And I guess I've just never really thoughtof these moments in the way that Ihave-- the reflecting on them.Like yesterday, that could have been something so simple.And now I'm looking at it.No, actually that was a really big step for her.

    • 35:28

      KELSIE MCGEE [continued]: So reflecting on it, I think it turnsmore when you've asked about how it might affect othersor what that means about my relationship with those people.I think that's when it just becomes more real versus just

    • 35:49

      KELSIE MCGEE [continued]: this is the situation.This is what happened.Let's get over it.It's like well, this means something for a reason to you.This is difficult for a reason to you.Let's figure out what that reason is.

    • 35:60

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: So that place of figuring outwhat the reasons are resonates for you.

    • 36:05

      KELSIE MCGEE: Yeah.

    • 36:06

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Is that right?

    • 36:06

      KELSIE MCGEE: Yeah Sometimes I'm just so in the moment--like this is what it is and let's get it done with.

    • 36:11

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Pragmatic.

    • 36:12

      KELSIE MCGEE: Yeah, I've taught myself to do that.That's what helps worry.That's what helps anxiety.Let's get it done.But I've never really taken the timeto think well, why am I so worried about it?And what does that worry speak to?When you asked about what's in the worry,I imagined a ball when you said that.I don't know why.What is worry?And that kind of opened my eyes a lot more,

    • 36:33

      KELSIE MCGEE [continued]: like what is that meaning?

    • 36:36

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: It's a rather simple question, right?And it opened a new experience in your relationship to worry?

    • 36:43

      KELSIE MCGEE: Definitely.Yeah.

    • 36:45

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: And so what shiftdid you start feeling in that question?

    • 36:50

      KELSIE MCGEE: I think more so that--just that the worry comes from a place of caringabout someone or something.It's not just this thing that's just therebecause it wants to be.I guess in a way it's not just there to hinder my lifebecause it just wants to.It's there for a reason.

    • 37:10

      KELSIE MCGEE [continued]: Because it's speaking to something.

    • 37:12

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: So it has a purpose thatis relationally responsive.

    • 37:16

      KELSIE MCGEE: Yeah, that I can relate to.I know why it's there.So maybe if I know why it's there,I can know how to get rid of it.

    • 37:25

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Or how to respond to it?

    • 37:27

      KELSIE MCGEE: Or how to respond to it.If it needs to be there, how to keep it in check.

    • 37:31

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Can I ask that question thenfrom your mother's eyes as well?What would she say why she worries as well?

    • 37:45

      KELSIE MCGEE: Whoo.I mean, I know why.She cares about her daughters.She cares about her family.It's her baby daughter too.So there's another level, I think,in that, which is fine with me.It's not a favoritism type thing,but it's her youngest daughter.And she's so young.

    • 38:06

      KELSIE MCGEE [continued]: And she has the same worries as me.What is this going to mean for the rest of her futureor the rest of her life?So having to-- yes, I know.Thinking about that now, I feel bad for the waysthat I have maybe reacted to her at timeswhen she's been in that worry.

    • 38:22

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Yeah, yeah.I'm wondering if there are thingsthat you would want your mother to knowabout your preferred way of responding to her when she'sworried.

    • 38:34

      KELSIE MCGEE: I want her to know that it's not--that the way I respond sometimes when I am in that snappy moodor what not that I have--that it's not about her.That it's about me and maybe some things I'm going through.And that's kind of how I feel like she's maybe internalizedthat I'm mad at her or something.

    • 38:55

      KELSIE MCGEE [continued]: And I don't want her to think it's that.I can't imagine being a mother and havingto deal with what she's going through right now.And I don't want to add to that in any way.And I want her to know that if I've madeher feel any sort of way that it's just because I'mtrying to deal with things too, trying to figure it out also.

    • 39:13

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Yes, yeah, yeah.And what difference would that make between you and herif she knew that about the last couple of monthsand those moments that occasionally came upthat were snappy?

    • 39:27

      KELSIE MCGEE: I think we'd just have a more--just a better understanding of each other and justbe able to more talk openly about thingsand not making judgments about what's going on.

    • 39:41

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: OK.Is this a fair statement that both you and your mom sharea certain caring for people that sometimes then invites worry?

    • 39:55

      KELSIE MCGEE: Yes.It's a completely fair and true statement.

    • 40:01

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Do you talk with your momabout your caring hearts?[Noticing the "caring heart" she shares with her mother]

    • 40:07

      KELSIE MCGEE: I don't think we ever have.No.

    • 40:09

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Yeah.If you were to do that-- and I'm not suggesting thatthat's necessarily the next step or one of the next stepson that navigational map--I'm just wondering if you were, what might be there?

    • 40:27

      KELSIE MCGEE: Maybe just a better appreciationof each other and what we go through.I think because we are very similar,I think sometimes we butt heads because of that.I see my flaws in her because they're the same flaws.We see that side of it.

    • 40:48

      KELSIE MCGEE [continued]: But I think we tend to focus on those flaws, not the betterparts.I suppose.

    • 40:56

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: And the better partsare about the spaces of shared caring?

    • 41:00

      KELSIE MCGEE: Yeah, definitely.My mom's always been the--she takes care of everyone.She still pretty much takes care of her mom and her siblings,who when they need help, she is alwaysthe one person they go to.Whether it's financial, if it's emotional, the burden's on her.

    • 41:21

      KELSIE MCGEE [continued]: So I see the same situation I'm in, she is in for her familyas well.

    • 41:28

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: You had used the phraseat the beginning of our conversation that sometimesin this situation that you felt like you were the glue holdingthings together.And I'm wondering if your mother'sexperience in her family--if that's similar or different.

    • 41:45

      KELSIE MCGEE: No, it's the exact same.

    • 41:47


    • 41:49

      KELSIE MCGEE: I see myself as herwhen I'm in whatever many years.

    • 41:53

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Yeah, yeah.And are there places in there that you reallylove to emulate about her?

    • 42:00

      KELSIE MCGEE: Yes.There are a lot, a lot.Most of it, I would.I mean, she'll give you the shirt off her back.She'll do anything for her family, her kids growing up,and anybody else in her life.But at the same time, I've seen the toll it's taken on heras well.That I worry for her if she continues to do that and notgive time to herself.

    • 42:21

      KELSIE MCGEE [continued]: And then also is that going to be me in the future?Those little parts.

    • 42:27

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: So is part of youdoing this slightly different to say thisis where I can be like you?This is where I'd like to do things better?

    • 42:37

      KELSIE MCGEE: Yeah, I think so.Yeah, there's so much I take from her.And I do.I don't know if I've ever said that to her.But again, seeing those things, thereneed to be boundaries at some point.That was my taking a space.That was a boundary for me.And if she can learn from me in that way and if it helps her,

    • 42:57

      KELSIE MCGEE [continued]: I would love for it too as well.

    • 43:01

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Has she helped youto draw the map of where the pitfalls might be?

    • 43:07

      KELSIE MCGEE: Yes.That's where I've seen them.

    • 43:09

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: OK.So the map that you're drawing has a few itemson the key to the map?

    • 43:17

      KELSIE MCGEE: They're already there, some of them.

    • 43:19

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: OK.All right.Including ones of what not to do.

    • 43:24

      KELSIE MCGEE: Yeah.

    • 43:25

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Yeah.And some things that you want to continue to do more of.

    • 43:29

      KELSIE MCGEE: Mm-hmm.

    • 43:30

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Some similar to what she's done, some not.

    • 43:32

      KELSIE MCGEE: Yes.

    • 43:33

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Yeah, OK.So there's a lot unfolding in what we're talking about.And I'm wondering what it is that you'regoing to be taking away from this entire conversation.So later today or tomorrow as you'repacking and thinking about going to see your sis,

    • 43:53

      LORRAINE HEDTKE [continued]: what kinds of things are you goingto be holding on to that's useful?[Asking about conclusions she will take away]

    • 43:58

      KELSIE MCGEE: For me, again, the whole ball of worry thingjust really spoke to me in that sensewhere this worry means something.But I want that to show.The reason it means something--I want that to show more than the worry shows.So just reminding myself of why I'm worried,

    • 44:19

      KELSIE MCGEE [continued]: which is because I care, and putting that foot forward morethan anything else--showing that support and that empathyand the understanding ahead of the worry.

    • 44:33

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: When you do that over the next few daysas you're appreciating your sister's puff pastriesand pastries and delectables, whatdo you think she'll see on your face?

    • 44:47

      KELSIE MCGEE: Hoping she'll see support and love and guidanceif she needs it.

    • 44:55

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: And what differencedo you hope that that will make to her?

    • 44:60

      KELSIE MCGEE: I just hope she continues her lifewith sobriety right now and just is successful and hasa healthy life.She's so young.

    • 45:14

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Yes.Yeah.

    • 45:15

      KELSIE MCGEE: Yeah.

    • 45:16

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: So when she sees those thingsand feels that and that makes that difference for her,do you think that that makes her path easier?

    • 45:28

      KELSIE MCGEE: I hope it does.I hope it does.My hope is that she's able to see and thinkif they think I can do it and they support me, well then,why shouldn't I think I can do it?

    • 45:39

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Got it.Yeah.OK.Would this be an OK place to start wrapping things up?

    • 45:47

      KELSIE MCGEE: Yeah.I think so.

    • 45:49

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Well, I was thinking about what it'slike to be an older sister.For myself, I don't have an older sister.But I was thinking that if I did have an older sister,I would like an older sister who lovedme like you love your sister.

    • 46:04

      KELSIE MCGEE: Thank you very much.That means a lot.

    • 46:07

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Yeah.I was just thinking about what a comfort that that would be.Yeah, yeah.

    • 46:13

      KELSIE MCGEE: Thanks.

    • 46:14

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Yeah.Thanks, Kelsie.

    • 46:16

      KELSIE MCGEE: Thank you.[Session Recap]

    • 46:20

      JOHN WINSLADE: OK, so Lorraine, I'mjust wanting to ask you a few things about your conversationwith Kelsie if that's OK.

    • 46:26

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Yeah, sure.

    • 46:28

      JOHN WINSLADE: Because one of the thingsthat I seemed to notice was the extent to whichyou gave her acknowledgment.And I'm wondering if you can speakto what your thoughts were about doing that.

    • 46:41

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Can you tell me whatyou mean by acknowledgment-- what you noticed?

    • 46:45

      JOHN WINSLADE: Well, there were lots of thingswhere you were saying--you were making statements.And then you would follow it up with a question, right?But your statement was an acknowledgementof what she was saying.

    • 46:57

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: OK.I think what you're asking me aboutis the position I take in just validating her experience.And that started right at the beginningwhen she told me that what she'd been going through was hard.And what she described sounded very hard.And so I just wanted to say--

    • 47:20

      LORRAINE HEDTKE [continued]: what I was thinking is if I were in her shoes,it would be really difficult. And it would be uncaring of meto not notice that.

    • 47:32

      JOHN WINSLADE: OK.So it's about caring.

    • 47:35

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Here's this thing.It is about caring.And it's also about entering into a relationship with her,even if that's for a short time wherewe're having a counseling conversation to generatesome new ideas.But I am being responsible to her and collaborating with her.

    • 47:56

      JOHN WINSLADE: OK.In the process of generating those new ideas,you spent quite a lot of time talking about internal Kelsieor internal counselor Kelsie.And I'm interested in what you were assuming as youwere asking those questions.

    • 48:15

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Sure.I think a couple of things.One is that grew out of the metaphors and the wordsthat Kelsie was using and describing to me.And originally, when we first started talking--that Kelsie was talking about the experienceof worry and anxiety as being so difficult that she felt as

    • 48:37

      LORRAINE HEDTKE [continued]: though she needed to pull away.And then she provided an opening to somethingthat might be different from thatand provided an opening to speak about howshe responded initially to the stories of worry and anxiety.So my thinking was the internal counselor voicewas also one that could provide the navigational tools that she

    • 49:03

      LORRAINE HEDTKE [continued]: needed to move forward in terrain that is yet uncharted.

    • 49:08

      JOHN WINSLADE: Yeah.OK, so it also implied hearing multiple Kelsies, right?

    • 49:15

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: It did.

    • 49:16

      JOHN WINSLADE: The Kelsie who was listeningto the voice of the internal counselor,then there was the internal Kelsiethat was giving the advice.I assume you were assuming that there's more than one Kelsie.

    • 49:32

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Correct.That would sit well with my beliefthat we all contain multiple aspects of ourselves,that we are always--to use Kelsie's terms--we're always navigating in those multiplicities, right?And we do so effortlessly.It doesn't seem to pose a problem for us

    • 49:54

      LORRAINE HEDTKE [continued]: in how we respond in one situation might bedifferent in another situation.And what we're called to do sometimesdiscovers new abilities in how we respond.And so I make the assumption that all of uslive with that all the time.It's not something that is unusual, abnormal.To be part of a multiple self that we all are

    • 50:17

      LORRAINE HEDTKE [continued]: is not a bad thing, but actually gives us fluidity.What Kelsie was speaking about waswhen she saw that and was experiencing that, that it gaveher more places to move from.Yeah.

    • 50:30

      JOHN WINSLADE: I was also interested in the questionyou asked--how did you learn to feel that way-- whenshe was talking about letting somebodydown, her sister probably at that point.

    • 50:40

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Yeah, we were speaking about--well, we were speaking both about her sister and her motherat that point.And embedded in that, for me, the assumptionwas that there was discourses around howshe should show up as the eldest child, the older sister.

    • 51:01

      LORRAINE HEDTKE [continued]: And that those are patterned or cultural responses as well thatmay or may not serve her.Right?And needed a little light shone on them to say,is this a useful thing or not a useful thing--to look at where these discourses rest.

    • 51:21

      JOHN WINSLADE: It implied also that how she was feelingwas not inevitable.

    • 51:25


    • 51:26

      JOHN WINSLADE: That there are multiple possibilitiesfor where she might go in her emotional responses.

    • 51:31

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Yeah.Because if you learn one thing, then youmight also choose to learn something differentand to respond differently in those circumstances.

    • 51:42

      JOHN WINSLADE: Another question whichwas very interesting to me was youasked about the caring inside the worry.And I was interested in what your intention waswhen you asked about that?

    • 51:56

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: I don't know whenit was that it shifted in the conversation with Kelsie,but what I started thinking was about the benefit to worry.Right?I just started thinking about worry in my own life--that at times when I've been worried, that sometimes there'sa reason I've been worried about something or a reason

    • 52:17

      LORRAINE HEDTKE [continued]: I've been anxious about it or somethingthat that helps me to pay attention toin a more keen kind of way.And so I started just this wild hair,wanting to follow that track with herto see whether that was true for her as well.And what then she gave story to was that there--

    • 52:40

      LORRAINE HEDTKE [continued]: when I asked the simple question of why do you worry,the response was that she cared.And to dismiss worry--to totalize worry is a problem story that should not be--

    • 52:55

      JOHN WINSLADE: It's always bad.

    • 52:56

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: It's always bad.We lose something in that totalizing of that, right?We lose that there's also love that lived in there for her,right?And I think for most of us that there are these other thingsthat can be carefully dissected to say what elements of worrydo you want to keep?What elements of worry do you want to let go of?

    • 53:20

      JOHN WINSLADE: What I noticed wasthat that led to a different kind of conversationwhere you were talking about Kelsie's relationship to worry.It wasn't just worry got to dominate.And worry got to be one thing.It actually became something that became much more nuanced.Is that how you were seeing it?

    • 53:38

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Yeah.That was how I was experiencing it.The conversation became much more finely tuned.Right?And I didn't want to lose sight in thereof that fine tuning of different parts of heror the different ways in which wecould respond to the different emotional experiences.

    • 54:00

      LORRAINE HEDTKE [continued]: I didn't want to lose sight of the action thatthen could be created out of that nuance, right?The risk is, in the counseling conversation,if we get too nuanced, we're goingto stay too much in our head--right-- if we explore those fine meanings too muchthat the action gets dwarfed.And so my thinking was is I want to pull it back

    • 54:24

      LORRAINE HEDTKE [continued]: into how will this be different then?When you enter in this situation--in a relational space with your mother,with your youngest sister, with your middle sister,with your father and with your friend who validates you--how will that shift those conversations?Right?

    • 54:41

      JOHN WINSLADE: As you brought those other people in,it seemed to me that you were creating opportunities for themto speak as well, like this was more than just Kelsie focusingon herself.

    • 54:52

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Yes, yes.

    • 54:54

      JOHN WINSLADE: The friend had things to say.And Kelsey's mother had things to say, and her father.

    • 55:00

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Yes, yeah.Yeah, I love that.Right, because we don't live in ourselves, right?We might think that we do, but we're alwaysliving in relationship to a lot of other people.And that was what I heard Kelsie say when I said, OK,let's stop the conversation.Let's reflect on what's happening.That was her comment of saying how helpful it

    • 55:22

      LORRAINE HEDTKE [continued]: was when she thought about it, that all of these thingswere happening in relationship to other people,rather than just her running away from something.

    • 55:31

      JOHN WINSLADE: You did that several times, especially moretowards the end where you invitedKelsie to zoom back and look at what she was talking about.And I'm wondering what do you think that does?

    • 55:42

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: I'm hoping that thatstarts to form the places where new story gets birthed--to use the term that she was using.That zooming back allows us to say,let's take stock of what we've created together,that we're going to hold as important,that then gives the ability to create the next step

    • 56:05

      LORRAINE HEDTKE [continued]: or the next step after that.To talk about what we talked about before, that experiencethat Deleuze talks about, about that creates a line of flightinto something new and something different.And without that kind of both combined reflection and takingstock, those lines of flight get missed.

    • 56:28

      LORRAINE HEDTKE [continued]: Yeah.

    • 56:29

      JOHN WINSLADE: Is that more important to do laterin the conversation, would you say?

    • 56:33

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Sometimes I think it is.Yeah.I think it's a jumping off point thatneeds to happen after we've kind of wrestledwith meaning a little bit--that we need to look at where the meaning isgoing to take us.

    • 56:49

      JOHN WINSLADE: Yeah.You asked some questions too which were about difference.What difference did this make?What difference did it make to what your mother knew?And what difference might it make to the sister?Again, they were stronger or more evidentin the latter part of the conversation.

    • 57:11

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Right.Yeah.

    • 57:13

      JOHN WINSLADE: Do you have any thoughtsabout why that might be?

    • 57:16

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Again, it's just noticing difference.I think it's hard when you're embroiled in one storyto stop sometimes and to really hold those small nuggets thatare nuanced and to form a new life with it.And the questions around difference help us to do that.

    • 57:36

      LORRAINE HEDTKE [continued]: They set the trajectory in a different directionthat would otherwise be a blip on a radar screen.

    • 57:43

      JOHN WINSLADE: Yeah.And that process you were asking about-- what are yougoing to be taking away from this, right?

    • 57:48

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Yeah, yeah.And let me point out one time where that happenedthat was really important--I think-- was when I slowed things down enough that Kelsietalked about her sister looking to her to bea big sister in the phone call that they had.Right?That could have just been a moment theyyou could've just gone right over quite easily, right?

    • 58:11

      LORRAINE HEDTKE [continued]: When we slow it down and talk about what different happened,what meaning goes into that, thatthen creates those new opportunities to say that.There's a new relationship to guilt and shame.And the new kind of relationship that they'regoing to be creating with one anothercan be evidenced in that moment when we slow it down, right?

    • 58:33

      JOHN WINSLADE: One final question.

    • 58:35


    • 58:37

      JOHN WINSLADE: I was interested in the questionat the end, which obviously was very moving for Kelsie.But you brought yourself into it.And you talked about your own not having an older sisterand how much you would have liked an older sister if you'd

    • 58:57

      JOHN WINSLADE [continued]: had one to be like Kelsie.And I'm wondering how you would describehow you using your own experience of that moment.

    • 59:10

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: I think it goes backto your very first question, John,that it goes back to those places of acknowledgment--of noticing that what Kelsie does makes a difference.And being able to position myselfin that collaborative conversationthat we're having in that way magnifies

    • 59:30

      LORRAINE HEDTKE [continued]: that story as something that's useful, powerful,that transports her to a different place.And in the process, I'm touched, right?I'm moved by what she said.My heart swells when I think about whatit would be like to have her as an older sisterand to be protective like that.

    • 59:52

      LORRAINE HEDTKE [continued]: And there's that place of humanitythat I share with her that I thinkis love filled and important.Yeah.

    • 01:00:02

      JOHN WINSLADE: And I can see as you talk about this,it moves you too.

    • 01:00:06

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: It does.It does, right?It does move me to be a part of being a witness to thatand creating that imagined space with her.Yeah.

    • 01:00:19

      JOHN WINSLADE: Even though you didn't have an older sister?

    • 01:00:21

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Even though I didn't have an older sister.Right.Yeah.

    • 01:00:24

      JOHN WINSLADE: Well, thank you.

    • 01:00:25

      LORRAINE HEDTKE: Yeah, thanks for those questions.Yeah.[MUSIC PLAYING]

Counseling Skills and Techniques: Substance Abuse and Addiction Counseling

View Segments Segment :


Lorraine Hedtke, Ph.D., conducts a counseling session for Kelsie, who feels overwhelmed in the aftermath of her younger sister's drug arrest. Afterwards, Hedtke debriefs with Professor John Winslade, Ph.D.

SAGE Video In Practice
Counseling Skills and Techniques: Substance Abuse and Addiction Counseling

Lorraine Hedtke, Ph.D., conducts a counseling session for Kelsie, who feels overwhelmed in the aftermath of her younger sister's drug arrest. Afterwards, Hedtke debriefs with Professor John Winslade, Ph.D.

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