Emotionally Focused Therapy: Session 1

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    • 00:00

      [MUSIC PLAYING][COMPLETE COUNSELING: From First to Last Session][Emotionally Focused Therapy with Shea M. Dunham,Ph.D. SESSION 1]

    • 00:23

      [Host SHANNON B. DERMER, Ph.D.]

    • 00:30

      SHANNON DERMER: Hello and welcome.My name is Shannon Dermer.And I'm the chair of the Division of Psychologyand Counseling at Governors State University. [Shannon B.Dermer, Ph.D, Chair, Division of Psychology and Counseling,Governors State University]I'm pleased to introduce the counselingseries, Complete Counseling, From First to Last Session.This series will take you, the viewer, through the beginning,middle, and ending stages of counseling with a client.

    • 00:52

      SHANNON DERMER [continued]: The five counseling sessions you are about to seefeature Dr. Shea Dunham.Shea is an associate professor at Governors State University.She works from an emotionally focused perspectiveand is an expert in family systems theory.She has published several professional articlesin the area of counseling and is co-editor

    • 01:13

      SHANNON DERMER [continued]: of the book, Poisonous Parenting, Toxic RelationshipsBetween Parents and Their Adult Children.She is currently working on the book, The Emotionally FocusedGuide to Revisioning African American Relationships.Emotionally focused therapy, otherwise known as EFT,was developed in the early '80s by doctors Sue Johnson and Les

    • 01:35

      SHANNON DERMER [continued]: Greenberg.EFT is a practical technique thathas enormous success with couplesand can facilitate change in marriages and relationshipsthat exhibit a wide range of challenges.EFT's main goals are to expand and reorganizeemotional responses, implement and fosterthe creation of a secure bond between partners,

    • 01:58

      SHANNON DERMER [continued]: and help shift each partner's position of interactionwhile initiating new cycles of interaction thatare more beneficial for the relationship.Emotionally focused therapy helpscreate secure and lasting bonds between partners and familymembers and strives to reinforce the positive bonds thatalready exist.

    • 02:19

      SHANNON DERMER [continued]: Shay is working with an African American married couple,Danielle and Jay, who have come to therapy to workon trust in their marriage.Shay will work with the couple on howto repair attachment injuries, negotiate different attachmentstyles, and build security and trust in their relationship.

    • 02:38

      SHEA DUNHAM: So welcome to your first session, Danielleand Jay.What we're going to do tonight is just basicallyget to know each other.So how long have the two of you been together?

    • 02:50

      DANIELLE: Want me to answer it?

    • 02:51

      JAY: Go ahead.

    • 02:53

      DANIELLE: Going on nine years?

    • 02:54

      JAY: Mm hm.

    • 02:54

      DANIELLE: And about to be married-- going on seven years.

    • 02:57

      SHEA DUNHAM: How did the two of you meet?

    • 02:59

      JAY: Oh, we met in college, at ITT.She actually was working in the financial aid department.And I was a student.She was also a student as well.And she-- I seen her.I called up on her and asked her--they told me to go to her about paying my books.And they told her that she was going to hunt me down

    • 03:19

      JAY [continued]: if I don't pay for my books.

    • 03:21

      DANIELLE: That's true.Did you make the first move, Jay?

    • 03:24

      JAY: Mm, not really.

    • 03:26

      DANIELLE: No.I'm going to answer that, no.

    • 03:28

      SHEA DUNHAM: OK.So you made the first move.

    • 03:30

      DANIELLE: Well, actually, technically, youasked me for my number.

    • 03:33

      JAY: Yeah, after you threatened me.

    • 03:35

      DANIELLE: Just a little bit.

    • 03:37

      SHEA DUNHAM: Are you two currently together?

    • 03:39

      DANIELLE: Yeah.

    • 03:39

      JAY: Yes.

    • 03:40

      SHEA DUNHAM: Have you ever been separated.

    • 03:42

      JAY: No.

    • 03:42

      DANIELLE: No.

    • 03:44

      SHEA DUNHAM: Have the two of you ever talked about divorce?

    • 03:47

      JAY: Once.

    • 03:48

      SHEA DUNHAM: How long ago was that?

    • 03:50

      JAY: Last year.

    • 03:52

      DANIELLE: It was last summer.

    • 03:53

      JAY: Yeah.

    • 03:54

      DANIELLE: Late summer.

    • 03:55

      SHEA DUNHAM: So it's only been talked about,never went to see a lawyer or anything like that?

    • 03:58

      DANIELLE: No.

    • 03:59

      JAY: Mm mm.No.

    • 04:00

      SHEA DUNHAM: Where, in terms of divorce, are you now?

    • 04:03

      JAY: No.

    • 04:04

      DANIELLE: I'm not looking at it.

    • 04:05

      SHANNON DERMER: So it's not an option?

    • 04:06

      JAY: No.

    • 04:07

      SHEA DUNHAM: So what I'm going to dois ask that, while we're doing this process,you kind of keep that off the table, OK?

    • 04:12


    • 04:13

      JAY: That's cool.[Shea M. Dunham, Ph.D., Emotionally Focused Therapy,Associate Professor, Governors State University]

    • 04:13

      SHEA DUNHAM: It seems like you both arecommitted to being together?

    • 04:17

      JAY: Yes.

    • 04:17

      DANIELLE: Yeah.

    • 04:18

      SHEA DUNHAM: Well, that's good.That's good.That's a very good start.That's a very good start.So I'm going to ask a couple of more questionsto continue to get to know you.

    • 04:25


    • 04:26

      SHEA DUNHAM: So you currently living together now?

    • 04:28

      DANIELLE: Yes.

    • 04:28

      SHEA DUNHAM: Not separated, divorce is not an option?

    • 04:31

      DANIELLE: No.

    • 04:31

      SHEA DUNHAM: Have you guys been in counseling before?

    • 04:33

      JAY: No

    • 04:34

      DANIELLE: No.

    • 04:34

      SHEA DUNHAM: Have you had individual counseling before?

    • 04:37

      DANIELLE: I have.

    • 04:38

      SHEA DUNHAM: And what was that like for you?

    • 04:40

      DANIELLE: Different.

    • 04:41

      SHEA DUNHAM: Different?

    • 04:42

      DANIELLE: It was different.I am a type of person that will keep my emotions to myselfif I can.But it's like, if I allow it to get overwhelming,then that's when it's not good.

    • 04:56

      SHEA DUNHAM: So was it a good experience for you?

    • 04:60

      DANIELLE: I wouldn't say, yes, it was.

    • 05:02

      SHEA DUNHAM: Were you in counselingregarding this relationship?

    • 05:05

      DANIELLE: Actually, no.I had a pre and postpartum depression.And actual depression after, so yeah.

    • 05:12

      SHEA DUNHAM: You have children with Jay?

    • 05:14

      DANIELLE: Yes, only with Jay.I'm not doing that.

    • 05:15

      SHEA DUNHAM: And how many children do you have?

    • 05:17

      DANIELLE: We have three biological children,two, three, and six.

    • 05:20

      SHEA DUNHAM: Did you ever think about Jay participatingin counseling with you?

    • 05:26

      DANIELLE: Yes and no.

    • 05:28

      SHEA DUNHAM: Did you ever talk to himabout participating in counseling with you?

    • 05:32

      DANIELLE: Mm hm.

    • 05:33

      SHEA DUNHAM: And what kept you two from doing that together?

    • 05:37

      JAY: I wasn't feeling for go for counseling,because I was raised up to talk to each other.And so if there was anything I had a problem with,I'd run to her anyway.So I felt that, if she had a problem with anything,she can come to me about anything.

    • 05:55

      DANIELLE: I was raised different.I was raised to take care of it.Regardless if you can handle it or not,you're the one that has to take care of it.So it's going to get taken care of, it's just.

    • 06:07

      SHEA DUNHAM: So whatever means necessary to kind of getthe help that you need, you go through that process?

    • 06:11

      DANIELLE: Mm hm.

    • 06:12

      SHEA DUNHAM: Do either of you suffer from any mental illness?

    • 06:16

      DANIELLE: No.

    • 06:16

      JAY: No.

    • 06:17

      SHEA DUNHAM: Have you ever been on any medicationfor depression or anxiety or any things like that?

    • 06:23

      DANIELLE: Yes, both, for depression and anxiety.

    • 06:25

      SHEA DUNHAM: You shook your head, yes, too, Jay.Are you also?

    • 06:27

      JAY: Mm hm.Yeah.I took it for depression.But I didn't stay on it for too long.

    • 06:32

      SHEA DUNHAM: How long do you think you stayed on it?

    • 06:34

      JAY: Not long at all.

    • 06:35

      DANIELLE: Maybe a day or two.

    • 06:37

      JAY: Yeah.Like I got the medicine, and I was justlike, ain't no reason for me to take it.Because as long as I felt that, if I have someone to talk to,who will actually listen to me instead of just criticizing,I felt I'd be all right.

    • 06:52

      SHEA DUNHAM: Was she the person that you talked to?

    • 06:55

      JAY: Yeah, I'd run to her or I'd run to a family memberand talk to them.

    • 06:59

      SHEA DUNHAM: So you kind of approach things as talk it out,things will work itself out?

    • 07:04

      JAY: Right.

    • 07:05

      SHEA DUNHAM: And you took medicationfor depression and anxiety?

    • 07:07

      DANIELLE: Mm hm.

    • 07:08

      SHEA DUNHAM: And how long-- well, let me ask this.Are you currently taking the medication?

    • 07:12

      DANIELLE: No.They felt I didn't need it.And I felt that I didn't need it either.

    • 07:16

      SHEA DUNHAM: And how long did you stay on medication?

    • 07:19

      DANIELLE: Well, it sounds bad, but it was on and off,on and off.And that's because we kept getting pregnant.

    • 07:27

      SHEA DUNHAM: So that would change taking medication.

    • 07:30

      DANIELLE: We end up, pretty much-- I think I end up,what, after Gwen died?

    • 07:39

      JAY: Yes.

    • 07:40

      DANIELLE: So after my grandmother passed, that's whenit.We found out I was pregnant, so then Iended up having a miscarriage after her death.So then, of course, that's when it again.Well, I was thinking after JJ, too.

    • 07:54

      JAY: Right.

    • 07:55

      DANIELLE: So it was like I kept getting pregnant.Something about my body just-- I lose a pound, I got pregnant.

    • 08:02

      JAY: When we got married, she was already pregnant.So like after we got married, it was like two more monthslater our first son was born.And then every year, we was.

    • 08:15

      DANIELLE: No, we skipped a year.We skipped 2009.

    • 08:18

      JAY: Yeah, 2009, that was the only year.

    • 08:21

      DANIELLE: But 2010, pregnant twice, 2011 pregnant once,2012.

    • 08:25

      SHEA DUNHAM: You said that you lost a child?

    • 08:26

      DANIELLE: We lost two.

    • 08:27

      SHEA DUNHAM: Lost two children.Were you pregnant and lost a child or did you go full term?

    • 08:34

      DANIELLE: Actually, no.It was within like the 8 to 10 week mark.So pretty much it was-- the first one,we kind of figured was like stress.Like I said, my grandmother passed.So it was a week after her passing.It was just me, like I couldn't take it.I wasn't expecting it.People, you can expect if they have an illness.Certain people, you're like.

    • 08:55

      JAY: It was a big surprise.

    • 08:56

      DANIELLE: Yeah.Very.

    • 08:58

      SHEA DUNHAM: I know that, for women, they kind of processthe death of a child different.I wanted to kind of talk to Jay and say,Jay, how did you process the death of your child?

    • 09:11

      JAY: It was surprising.It hurt.It was like, you actually tell yourselfit will never happen to me.And then, you know, when it does happen, it's like why,like what did I do that was so wrong that Ihad to go through this and why she had to go through this?So when that happened, it was like, when

    • 09:36

      JAY [continued]: she wake up in tears or somethinglike that about her grandmother or the miscarriageor stuff like that, I pop up like, what happened,what happened?You OK?You OK?So it was tough.It was tough to think that, you know,possibly somebody from-- that coming from youand your wife's love is not going to come forth.So just seeing her through the months, and then, you know,

    • 10:01

      JAY [continued]: it's not happening.And it's like, why?

    • 10:04

      SHEA DUNHAM: It's really interesting.You talked about seeing her through it.And I was more talking about how did you deal?

    • 10:12

      JAY: Honestly, I looked at her as me.So when it came down to anything going on with her, I'd be like,what can I do, what can I do, what can I do?Because even when we first got together,it was like it was never just a me thing.It was always a we thing.So when she was hurting, I was hurting.When I knew that she was happy, itmade me feel so much better, because I knew she was happy.

    • 10:35

      JAY [continued]: It's just never been like that for me,because I guess that's the way I was raised up or whatever.But I always looked at her as I needed her.You know what they say, the better half?She was that better half for me.So when she was going through pain, it's like,what can I do to help her out?What can I do to help her out?So when she went through that, it was like, dang man,

    • 10:58

      JAY [continued]: I don't know how to feel.It was like, what's she going off of?Now, I see that she's hurting, I'm hurting,because I didn't expect this either.So it's like, what can I do to make you feel better?

    • 11:10

      SHEA DUNHAM: So you kind of looked at that situationas how can we help her get better.

    • 11:17

      JAY: Yeah.

    • 11:18

      SHEA DUNHAM: And you just kind of, what,floated out there by yourself?

    • 11:22

      JAY: I just didn't know how to feel.I mean, I came from a family that-- I mean,we showed emotions.But we didn't just show all type of heartfelt emotion.We know about deaths.We know about what can happen if somebody is stressed outor something like that.And to know that someone you love

    • 11:42

      JAY [continued]: is going through that same pain islike, I don't want her going through that.So what can I do to help her out?And as much as she probably-- when she would go to sleep,it was like, I would go up in the living roomand try to sit there and just think like, what can Ido to make her feel better.

    • 11:59

      SHEA DUNHAM: And Danielle, how were youprocessing that experience?

    • 12:04

      DANIELLE: I couldn't.It sounds bad, but it's almost like two of mewhen it comes down to processing.It's either I'm content.And if I'm content, I'm happy and things like that.Or I'm just still.But it got to the point where I tried to attempt to process it,and it was hard for me.

    • 12:25

      SHEA DUNHAM: So you just kind of used Jay as your sourceto kind of?

    • 12:30

      DANIELLE: I mainly tried to keep it in.Like we would talk a little bit about it,but I couldn't like actually come out with the wordsand say, I feel this way, I feel this way.Word wasn't coming out right, at all.It was just like, this is how I'm feeling.I don't know how to express it.So if I don't know how to express it,

    • 12:51

      DANIELLE [continued]: how can I tell him what's wrong?

    • 12:52

      SHEA DUNHAM: But even though you weren'table to express it, were you able to leanon him in the other ways?

    • 13:01

      DANIELLE: Yes.For the most, I would say yes.And that's only because I try not to be a burden.And I can feel when he's, I guess,you can say, soaking up my emotion.So it's like I'm scared to put too much out there, because howcan I try to control my feelings and help you control yours,

    • 13:22

      DANIELLE [continued]: too?I can't.

    • 13:25

      SHEA DUNHAM: I liked the way you saidthat he soaked up my emotions.So you definitely know that whenever you're going through,your partner is kind of right there with you.Even if you don't turn to him for that level of support,you know that he's right there, and heis feeling some of those same things that you're feeling.But at the same time, he doesn't kind of

    • 13:45

      SHEA DUNHAM [continued]: reach out and take care of himself.

    • 13:47

      DANIELLE: Right.

    • 13:49

      SHEA DUNHAM: Do the two of you participate in any substanceusage?When I go out, every once in a while, like a drink.But that's like if I go out.

    • 14:01

      SHEA DUNHAM: Any marijuana use?

    • 14:02

      DANIELLE: No.

    • 14:03

      JAY: I'm allergic to it.

    • 14:03

      DANIELLE: He's allergic to it.

    • 14:05

      SHEA DUNHAM: Which would have cool if you did.

    • 14:07

      DANIELLE: It doesn't work for me.As a kid, I mean, you know, as you're younger, you try it.It doesn't work at all.So there's no point.

    • 14:14

      JAY: I'm poster drug child.I can't do no type of drug.

    • 14:18

      SHEA DUNHAM: Do you drink alcohol?

    • 14:21

      JAY: I barely.

    • 14:22

      DANIELLE: It's rare.

    • 14:23

      JAY: Yeah, that's very, very, very rare.

    • 14:26

      SHEA DUNHAM: How are you two doing financially?

    • 14:29

      JAY: Working our butts off.

    • 14:30

      DANIELLE: Yeah.Like I work two jobs and I go to school.

    • 14:33

      SHEA DUNHAM: Wow.

    • 14:34

      DANIELLE: He's working two jobs now, too.Our main goal is pretty much trying get everything in orderso we can buy our house.We're in a rent to own.So that's our goal is to buy our house.But for us to do that, we have to get things together.And we know it takes money, and it takes time.

    • 14:51

      SHEA DUNHAM: And boy, that's a very driven way,that two of you are working two jobs,you're going to school, to kind of accomplish somethingtogether.Would that be your first home?

    • 15:01

      DANIELLE: Yep.

    • 15:01

      SHEA DUNHAM: Getting your first home togetherand moving in and sharing in that experience,yeah, that's awesome.Has there been any affairs in your relationship?

    • 15:12

      DANIELLE: On my part.

    • 15:15

      SHEA DUNHAM: Can you tell me a little bit more about that?[LAUGHTER]

    • 15:23

      DANIELLE: It was last summer.I cheated on my husband.

    • 15:27

      SHEA DUNHAM: Was it the first--

    • 15:29

      DANIELLE: Mm hm.

    • 15:30

      SHEA DUNHAM: --time you stepped outside your relationship?

    • 15:34

      DANIELLE: Pretty much.

    • 15:36

      SHEA DUNHAM: Is that hard for you to talk about?

    • 15:38

      DANIELLE: Actually, no.It's mainly because I don't know how he's going to take it.

    • 15:43

      SHEA DUNHAM: This isn't the first timeyou've heard this, Jay?

    • 15:45

      JAY: No.

    • 15:45

      DANIELLE: No.

    • 15:47

      DANIELLE: I was honest about it.I actually brought it to his attention.

    • 15:51

      SHEA DUNHAM: Was it an ongoing relationship?

    • 15:53

      DANIELLE: No.

    • 15:54

      SHEA DUNHAM: And was it sexual, emotional, or both?

    • 15:58

      DANIELLE: Sexual.The whole point of it was for no emotions to be involved.

    • 16:05

      SHEA DUNHAM: Now, the person that you had the affair with,is that someone that both of you knew?

    • 16:11

      JAY: Yes.

    • 16:13

      SHEA DUNHAM: Tell me about that.

    • 16:14

      DANIELLE: It was an ex.So it was actually the ex before my husband.

    • 16:21

      SHEA DUNHAM: And Jay, how did you find out?

    • 16:27

      JAY: It sounds weird, but it was like I know Danielle well.And I know when she's trying to hide something.So I came to her and asked her multiple, different questions.And then, when she came to me and asked me,I think she already knew I was getting close to asking her.So she's just like, you just ask me what you want to ask me.

    • 16:48

      JAY [continued]: So I went on and asked her.And I really thought she was going-- I already had a feelingthat she already cheated on me.But I was like, hopefully, she'll just tell me, no.So when she said, me and you need to talk,when she said that, I really tried to just run away.And then she was like, no, we need to talk about it.

    • 17:09

      JAY [continued]: I'm a person who don't curse.So a "fuck" curse is something that got really--

    • 17:13

      DANIELLE: It's bad.

    • 17:13

      JAY: --make me very upset.So that was the one time I'll just really lost all feelingswhen it came down to Danielle.

    • 17:23

      SHEA DUNHAM: When you say you lost all feelings,expand that a little bit for me.

    • 17:28

      JAY: I didn't look at Danielle emotionally.I did not feel like I was connected to her anymore.I felt that she was someone who was a stranger, moreof a stranger than a lover.I looked at her at the same way at that point.

    • 17:42

      SHEA DUNHAM: Because that's not something that?

    • 17:45

      JAY: I'm used to doing.Because, like I say, I grew up in a household,we didn't show that much emotion.But we showed something and to know, when you found love,you found love.And I found love with her.So when she told me, when she did that, it was like why?I was there with you when it came down to this.

    • 18:05

      JAY [continued]: I was there when you came down through pregnancies.I was there with you when it's surgeries.Everything that you asked me, I was definitely there for.And this dude cheated on you, broke your heart,broke up with you in the middle of the night,did all this stuff to hurt you, and you went backto him of all people?I'm like why?What did I ever do to you that was so wrong?

    • 18:26

      JAY [continued]: What did I ever?Just, say, like I was some dead-beat dude in your life.Till this very day, I still don't understand it.As much as I forgave Danielle, it'sstill something that I-- it just.

    • 18:39

      SHEA DUNHAM: You forgave her, but you still--

    • 18:41

      JAY: Can't forget.

    • 18:42

      SHEA DUNHAM: --can't forget that,can't forget the pain of what happened.

    • 18:46

      JAY: Yeah.It's like it just comes at random times, because meand Danielle, when we got together, I knew of him.And I knew this guy was not right for her.Because she would tell me about stuff that he was doing.And I'm like, you need to find real love.He's not loving you.He's trying to be with someone else.

    • 19:08

      SHEA DUNHAM: So you knew him as the dog, the jerk.

    • 19:10

      JAY: Yes.

    • 19:10

      SHEA DUNHAM: And how could you go backto the dog and the jerk.

    • 19:13

      JAY: Like my mom always tells me,why would a dog go back to his own vomit?And it was like, you went back to this dude who treated youlike dirt.And you went back to him while youhave a guy who would've laid down his life for you.And you literally went to him.And I'm just like, I can't understand it.

    • 19:33

      SHEA DUNHAM: What was that experience like for you,Danielle?

    • 19:36

      DANIELLE: The cheating itself or areyou talking about hurting him?

    • 19:39

      SHEA DUNHAM: The cheating itself.

    • 19:43

      DANIELLE: It was excitement.It got to a point where me and him, communication literallywent out the window for like two years, almost, or a little bitover.And when we did talk, all that we did was argue.

    • 19:57

      SHEA DUNHAM: When you say, for two years,did something happen in that time?

    • 20:03

      JAY: Well, when it came down to her,she would say that I was trying to change her.The thing was, when it came down to me,I wasn't trying to change her.It was just the simple fact, I would ask her like, Danielle,I don't think we should do it like this.How about we do it like this?And that's why I couldn't understand

    • 20:25

      JAY [continued]: why she felt the way she felt.Because I'm looking like, you ain'tthe only one that made changes.I did, too.

    • 20:32

      SHEA DUNHAM: Danielle, did you see it that way, that hewas trying to change you?

    • 20:37

      DANIELLE: Yes.

    • 20:39

      SHEA DUNHAM: He gave his perspective of how he saw it.I want you to tell me how you saw [Shea M. Dunham, Ph.D.,Emotionally Focused Therapy, Associate Professor, GovernorsState University] in that period of time before the affair.

    • 20:56

      DANIELLE: It sounds bad, but it's like you grow up,and these standards are placed upon you.Regardless of what you do, these standards are placed upon you.You have to do this.You have to do that.As a woman, you have to do this.As a mother, you have to do this.You're supposed to take care of your husband, obeyyour husband.I already have issues with certain wordsas it is, because growing up "obey" and "supposed to"

    • 21:19

      DANIELLE [continued]: and things like that because.

    • 21:21

      SHEA DUNHAM: Did you grow up in a very?Tell me about, when you say grow up?

    • 21:25

      DANIELLE: I was raised by my grandparents.

    • 21:27

      SHEA DUNHAM: And were your grandparents old-fashioned?

    • 21:29

      DANIELLE: My grandmother was the type of person,you take care of home.So regardless of what you do, you take care of home.My grandfather, God knows if he's my grandfather,he lived in my house.His name was James Anderson.My grandmother's husband was Lamart Anderson.And her boyfriend was Yalvester.

    • 21:51

      DANIELLE [continued]: So she always made sure she took care of home.And I was like, I'm not going to be like that.I'm trying my hardest to be with one person, which was alreadysomething that I wasn't even used to.Talking to people is easy for me.But like being in a relationship and justbeing able to deal with that person for a long period

    • 22:14

      DANIELLE [continued]: of time was surprising for me.

    • 22:16

      SHEA DUNHAM: So it was surprisingthat you and Jay had been together that long?

    • 22:19

      DANIELLE: Yes.It's still surprising for me.

    • 22:22

      SHEA DUNHAM: Because previously, you had multiple relationships?

    • 22:25

      DANIELLE: Mm hm.I'm the type of person, I guess I have a fear of being stuck.I was stuck in one situation.And I went from one stuck situationto another stuck situation.That's not good for me.Because when I feel like I'm stuck,

    • 22:47

      DANIELLE [continued]: I start having anxiety attacks.I feel the stress.I feel the weight of my world like just being on me.And that means I need to do everything everybody wantsme to.But where is happiness?And that's how I felt.I felt like just because you're marry someone,is happiness supposed to go out the window?

    • 23:07

      DANIELLE [continued]: Just because you marry, when does your independencego goodbye, that independence that youdidn't have or get a chance to experience in the first place?

    • 23:14

      SHEA DUNHAM: Is that how the affair was so attractive,because you got to make a choice?

    • 23:20

      DANIELLE: Yes.

    • 23:21

      SHEA DUNHAM: And so that's why itlooked like that's an option.Because this is me.And I get to make the choice.And nobody has to restrain me.

    • 23:29

      DANIELLE: Exactly.It sounds bad, but it wasn't something I had to think about.At the time, I felt like I was walking on eggshells.And he probably felt the same way,because he was scared to talk to me.I was scared to talk to him, because I got tiredof the arguing.

    • 23:44

      JAY: Well, she thought that everything of waking up to mewas a bother.I didn't look at it as a bother.I'd rather her did talk to me.So if she talked to me, I'll be able to understandwhere she's coming from.But when she kept on saying, I feel like I'm a bother,I feel like I'm a bother, I'm like.Many times I told her, you are not a bother to me.She never believes me.

    • 24:05

      JAY [continued]: And that would make be upset with her, because it's like,do any of my words hit you?Because I'm telling you you're not this and you're not that,you're not this.And in her mind, she is, she is, she is.I got to take care of this.I got to take care of this.I got to take care of this.I got to do my wifely duties.I got to do my woman.I'm like, what wifely duties do youhave besides just loving me?

    • 24:28

      JAY [continued]: If you love me, I don't think you have no duties.Because I know how to cook.I know how to clean behind myself.I know how to wash my own clothes.

    • 24:35

      SHEA DUNHAM: So you thought, you didn't have these expectations.But from where you came from, they are expectations.Regardless of what he thinks, they are expectations.

    • 24:44

      DANIELLE: Exactly.

    • 24:44

      SHEA DUNHAM: And those expectationscaused you to feel boxed in.

    • 24:47

      DANIELLE: Yep.Because you already have expectations on yourself.And then you have the expectationsthat people put upon you.So it's like I have my family put expectations on me.He doesn't realize, but I felt like I was--expectations from his family.Because if I said the wrong thingor if I said it the wrong way, it was a problem.If I did something, somebody else would have laughed.

    • 25:10

      DANIELLE [continued]: But then it's like, they go back and tell me,I'm an adult, not a kid.Why are you telling like?And it didn't even have to be anything wrong.It was just-- I just got tired.And when you get to a point when you're tired, with me,when I'm tired, I'm tired.My emotions are gone.I have none.

    • 25:29

      SHEA DUNHAM: So the affair gave you excitement,but it also gave you a place whereyou didn't have to have rules.

    • 25:34

      DANIELLE: Correct.

    • 25:35

      SHEA DUNHAM: And you'd get to playhowever you wanted to play.Yeah, yeah, I definitely can understand whythat would seem so appealing.

    • 25:44

      DANIELLE: It went from me having to be careful of whatI say, how I said it, who I said it to, and the tone of voiceI was going to say it in.So if I wanted to say something to or ask someonea question or just a statement, how was he going to take it?

    • 26:05

      DANIELLE [continued]: Is he going get offended?You know, is my tone of voice?By the time you're done with that,you're mentally exhausted.On top of doing everything that'sphysically exhausting, on top of that, you're exhausted.

    • 26:20

      SHEA DUNHAM: Now you talked about walking on eggshells.Did you feel like that's what your experience--

    • 26:24

      JAY: Yes.

    • 26:24

      SHEA DUNHAM: --were, too?

    • 26:25

      JAY: Yes.

    • 26:25


    • 26:27

      JAY: Every single time, it was like I feltthat it took her one argument.One time, she raised her voice at me-- the first timeshe ever raised her voice at me, I was like, whoa,where did that come from?I'm like, I don't see you doing all that.And the next thing you know, it startedhappening more and more.And I'm looking like, OK, I don't

    • 26:47

      JAY [continued]: want to make her mad again.So let me walk on eggshells and try not to piss heroff some kind of way.And when I was doing that, I was like,let me just try and stay out of her way.But at the same time, it was like,let me see if she's needing me to do anything, too.Because it was like I'm fighting between two different people.This person that, yo, you the man of your house.

    • 27:11

      JAY [continued]: And the other person is saying, hey, show her that you love herand show her that you care for her.Because like she says, she was raisedby her grandmother but also a housefulof women and just the one man.Now me, on the other hand, I was raised with my two brothersand only my mom.

    • 27:29

      SHEA DUNHAM: So men had a very strong voice.

    • 27:31

      JAY: Right.Like my mom, made sure that, hey, y'all are men,so take care of the household.

    • 27:39

      DANIELLE: In my household, my grandmother was the headperson, for not only just our family,but if her brothers and sisters-- if her mom,they needed something--

    • 27:50

      SHEA DUNHAM: They came there.

    • 27:51

      DANIELLE: --they went to her.She was a heavy-set woman.And if it needed to be done physically, it was me.So it's like it went from her to me, her to me.And when she passed, everything was on me.

    • 28:05

      SHEA DUNHAM: Went to you?

    • 28:07

      DANIELLE: So even before she passed, once she was sick,everything was on me.Literally, I think I was, what, eighth grade or seventh gradeby then.And then I went to high school.I went to school.I got up every morning.I got myself ready.I got my cousin ready, who was a baby then.So again, I'm raising a kid that's not mine.

    • 28:27

      DANIELLE [continued]: I'm going to school.I'm going to swim practice.That was my only way out of anythingwas going to swim practice.I would literally not even fully put on my clothes.I would just on like my swim trunks, run to school.Swim season is November, December.I would literally run to like work or something, work,then I'm going to the hospital.Sleep was not even an option.

    • 28:47

      SHEA DUNHAM: So everything was just put on you.

    • 28:49

      DANIELLE: Yes.

    • 28:49

      SHEA DUNHAM: You guys talk a little bitabout some of the conflictual times in your relationship.I want to know, have they ever got physical?Have there been any physical altercations between the twoof you?

    • 28:59

      JAY: Only time, when I found out that cheated on me.Because Danielle-- I grew up, went to church and everythinglike that.And I believed in it.The person you give yourself to is the person, you know.So I literally was a kid praying that the womanI give myself to--

    • 29:16

      SHEA DUNHAM: That's it.That's the one for the rest of my life.

    • 29:18

      JAY: --that's the one I want to be with.So literally, as many girls that I met in my life and stufflike that, I did not have no relations,no sexual relationship with them until I met Danielle.So meeting Danielle, being my only personand having sex with her and stuff like that,I'm like, all right, OK.So when she told me that she cheated on me, I was like,

    • 29:43

      JAY [continued]: OK, you know, don't touch her.Because you know strong as that.So do not touch her.And the one thing she was saying, why can't Ihave both, both worlds?

    • 29:58

      SHEA DUNHAM: And what did you think she meantwhen she said both worlds?

    • 30:01

      DANIELLE: I honestly asked him, before all that happened,for an open marriage.

    • 30:05

      JAY: Yeah.And I told her no.Because I don't want no one else besides her.And if I can find someone better than her,then that's different then what me and her agreedon when we was even engaged.Well, if we can find someone better,then shoot, then by all means.

    • 30:24

      SHEA DUNHAM: But that wasn't part of the plan.That wasn't what you agreed on when you said, I do.

    • 30:28

      JAY: Right.Because when it came down to, I do, I was like, yeah,she's the woman for me.She got me my first son.I'm happy around her.She's my best friend.

    • 30:38

      SHEA DUNHAM: And she was your first sexual experience?

    • 30:40

      JAY: Yes.So it was like, she was my world.So when she said that she wanted both worlds, I did.I snapped.I lost all who was Jay.Because I went through a life seeing my mom broken downbecause of my father.

    • 31:00

      JAY [continued]: And I'm looking like, why would you want to hurt me like this?So when she said, I literally hurt her.And she was scared from me for a while.And that made me feel bad.Because I never wanted to put my hands on her before.

    • 31:17

      SHEA DUNHAM: And what you saw your mother go through,that's not something you want to bring into your house.

    • 31:22

      JAY: Exactly.Because my father, he was never in my life.And I mean, I'd just see my mom in tears.Me, on the other hand, I'm a peaceful person.But when you get me mad, I try not to go after that person.I go after things I know that I won'tget in trouble for hitting.So I punched the wall.

    • 31:43

      JAY [continued]: So instead of me hitting her, I hit the wall.And then when she said what she said,I literally grabbed her by her neck.And I did not mean to choke her, but it waslike, why would you say this?And then when I realized what I was doing, it was like, whoa!Who are you?Why would you do this?

    • 32:02

      SHEA DUNHAM: How long ago was this incident?

    • 32:04

      JAY: Oh, in the past summer.2014 was the most, roughest year.I lost two jobs during that year.Friends, everything was going.I felt that.

    • 32:19

      SHEA DUNHAM: You were losing everything?

    • 32:20

      JAY: Yeah.

    • 32:20

      SHEA DUNHAM: Everything was just-- you couldn't hold onto anything.

    • 32:23

      JAY: From family members, I wasn't talkingto family members, losing jobs.Me and my wife is at each other here.It was like, why is the world against me?I did everything that everyone asked of me,and I'm getting worse.I'm getting the worst treatment than anyone else.

    • 32:43

      JAY [continued]: I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

    • 32:45

      SHEA DUNHAM: Was the police ever called?

    • 32:47

      JAY: Only one particular time but not on us.Me and Danielle had a really bad argumentto the point that I literally almost had a heart attack.And when I almost had a heart attack,she was engaged in a physical fight with her own cousin.And when I tried to break it up, I literally dropped.

    • 33:09

      SHEA DUNHAM: But the incident that happened this summer,the police was not called?

    • 33:13

      JAY: Mm mm.

    • 33:14

      DANIELLE: No.

    • 33:14

      SHEA DUNHAM: I just want to take a moment, right at this time,to say, do both of you feel safe in your relationship?Danielle, do you feel safe in your relationship?

    • 33:23

      DANIELLE: Mm hm.

    • 33:23

      SHEA DUNHAM: How about you, Jay?

    • 33:24

      JAY: Yeah.

    • 33:24

      SHEA DUNHAM: You feel safe in your relationship?

    • 33:26

      JAY: I mean, she even knows this to this very day.I'm still working on trusting her.But it's hard for me not to just put some type of trustin her, because I do love her so much.And not just because she's the mother of my kids,but because she's always been my friend, my best friend at that.

    • 33:46

      JAY [continued]: So it's like, when people turn their backs on me,she was the one that I ran to the most.She knows that I'm not fully trusting her,but I put some type of trust in her.

    • 33:59

      SHEA DUNHAM: So you talked about she being your first.And I want to know about intimacybetween the two of you.Tell me a little bit about that.Your sexual intimacy?

    • 34:12

      JAY: Yeah.It was wild.

    • 34:14

      SHEA DUNHAM: OK, tell me about wild.[LAUGHTER]

    • 34:17

      DANIELLE: At the beginning, everything was excitement.And one, we didn't see each other.Like I've always worked days.And I went to school during the at night.He always worked nights and went to school in the day.So it was like.

    • 34:34

      JAY: It was like.

    • 34:36

      DANIELLE: Like we rarely got a chance to see each other.So when we saw each other.

    • 34:39

      SHEA DUNHAM: You guys were intimate.

    • 34:42

      DANIELLE: Had the opportunity.

    • 34:43

      JAY: It was like, man, whenever the opportunity showeditself, it was like, hey, ain't no one around.

    • 34:47

      SHEA DUNHAM: Let's do this.

    • 34:48

      JAY: Let's do what we need to do.

    • 34:50

      SHEA DUNHAM: And that was at the beginning.How long do you think you guys were on that high?

    • 34:55

      JAY: Honestly, I mean, the high really never went.I think it's just sleeping right now.

    • 34:60

      SHEA DUNHAM: I like that, it's just sleeping right now.

    • 35:03

      JAY: I mean, at the beginning of our relationship.

    • 35:05

      DANIELLE: At least the first two years.

    • 35:08

      JAY: Yeah.

    • 35:08

      DANIELLE: Yeah, the first two.

    • 35:09

      JAY: Because I mean.

    • 35:09

      SHEA DUNHAM: So it was two years.

    • 35:10

      JAY: It was very new to me.So I was just like, hey, I want to do everythingfrom the movies.

    • 35:19

      DANIELLE: I was actually scared to pop his cherry.

    • 35:24


    • 35:26

      JAY: Make me not a virgin no more, just.[LAUGHTER]

    • 35:30

      SHEA DUNHAM: Didn't want to take his virginity.

    • 35:32

      DANIELLE: Yes, because I knew it came with consequences.

    • 35:35

      SHEA DUNHAM: That's interesting, yousay you knew it came with consequences.Tell me what do you mean by, you knew it came with consequences.

    • 35:40

      DANIELLE: I had a lot of male friends.So you saw these females when their first time waswith one of my friends, they acted crazy.They were love-struck.And they couldn't see nothing besides this person only.And I was like, oh, no.

    • 35:55

      SHEA DUNHAM: And you didn't want love-struck?

    • 35:57

      DANIELLE: No.

    • 35:59

      JAY: You see, the thing is about her-- let me explain this.

    • 36:01

      DANIELLE: He doesn't believe.

    • 36:03

      JAY: No, let me explain this.Because you say you want to change it up.

    • 36:06

      DANIELLE: How would I do that?

    • 36:07

      JAY: When me and her got together,me and her made a deal.And whoever said "love you" first-- so I said "love you"first.

    • 36:14

      DANIELLE: Oh, that's right, he lost.

    • 36:15

      JAY: But the thing is, when I reallyrealized I wanted to be with her the most was one particular daywhen I was talking in the rain.And she was just like, I can't.I fall in love real hard.I'm like I'd rather you fall in love real hard with me,because I do the exact same thing.So me and her started having more of a relationship then.

    • 36:39

      JAY [continued]: And our relationship became-- it wasn't sexual.It was more of--

    • 36:44

      DANIELLE: Passionate.

    • 36:44

      JAY: --passionate, yeah.

    • 36:45

      SHEA DUNHAM: Had you two had sex by that time?

    • 36:47

      JAY: No.

    • 36:48


    • 36:49

      JAY: We didn't have sex whatsoever.By that time, we did not have sex.Because the simple fact was, the first time me and herwere intimate, she made be mad.Because I thought that I mad her mad, because mebeing freshly at it, I was trying to live up

    • 37:09

      JAY [continued]: to everybody's dream.Yeah, ahh.

    • 37:11

      DANIELLE: Well, first I thought he lied.Because when you hear a guy who's, what, I think it was 22?

    • 37:16

      JAY: Yes.

    • 37:17

      DANIELLE: That they're a virgin, you're like, you lying.You got to be lying.And at that time, his hair was down to here.He was a pretty boy.So I grew up in the city.Pretty boys always, always, no matter what, they got.

    • 37:32

      SHEA DUNHAM: They're not virgins.

    • 37:34

      DANIELLE: They're not virgins at all.And I just thought he was lying.Like when he said he had a deep, dark secret.He was so pretty.And it seemed like all my friends were coming outto me that year, like, hey, I'm bi, I'm a lesbian, I'm gay.

    • 37:48

      SHEA DUNHAM: So you thought that was his deep, dark secret.

    • 37:50

      JAY: The thing was she looked at me like that.I read her face.I was like, oh, no, no, no, that ain't it.

    • 37:56

      SHEA DUNHAM: That's not what's going on.

    • 37:57

      JAY: God no.I'm just a virgin.And she was like, oh.

    • 38:01

      SHEA DUNHAM: So at first, you guyswere really into this sexual experiencewhen you guys became sexual.

    • 38:08

      DANIELLE: We wasn't a couple yet.

    • 38:10

      SHEA DUNHAM: So you weren't a couple.And you were having this sexual experience.You kind of was like a little afraid that he may become--

    • 38:17

      DANIELLE: Attached.

    • 38:18

      SHEA DUNHAM: --so attached to me.

    • 38:20

      DANIELLE: And I already had enough on my plate.I'm taking care of so much at my household.And I already had a boyfriend.But he knew that.

    • 38:29

      JAY: See, the thing is that's that same guy that she hadthe affair with was the guy.But he's already cheating on her, treating her like dog.So I told her, from the beginning,I wanted to take her away from that and show her real love.And when she came to me, it was funny,because she came to me-- of anythingshe could ask me for, she asked me for something big,

    • 38:50

      JAY [continued]: and that was a lot of money.And I'm like, I got you.I'll go and make it happen.And she was like, are you serious.And I'm like, yeah.I mean I work.I've been working almost all my life.So I'm like, I can make it happen.And she went, OK.And I went on, got the money for her.

    • 39:05

      DANIELLE: And my pride, it was already hardfor me to even ask him.But my grandmother needed something.I was working.I couldn't get it right then and there.So when I got paid, I made sure that I triedto give him that money back.He would not accept it.

    • 39:17

      SHEA DUNHAM: But hold on.The two of you seemed to have been very good friendsin order to ask for money--

    • 39:22

      DANIELLE: Yeah.

    • 39:23

      JAY: Yeah.

    • 39:23

      SHEA DUNHAM: --before you had sex.

    • 39:25

      DANIELLE: We were college buds.

    • 39:26

      SHEA DUNHAM: So before you had sex, you two were pretty close.And so, did you confide in Jay about this relationshipyou were in?

    • 39:33

      DANIELLE: Mm hm.

    • 39:34

      JAY: Mm hm.

    • 39:35

      DANIELLE: And to me, it sounds so bad,but I think that was one of the biggest issues.Because he knows everything.He knows stuff that your spouse is not supposed to know.How many?Who?He's probably met a few.

    • 39:48

      SHEA DUNHAM: But that makes you really close, too.

    • 39:50

      DANIELLE: True.But if you're at a number and he's at uno, to me,it just seemed like it ended up being tension.And then if I say something or if I'mjoking with a friend, why you got bring that up?You've had, you know, more experience than I did

    • 40:10

      DANIELLE [continued]: and things like that.

    • 40:12

      JAY: It became more offensive, because it felt like-- I mean,I know she didn't meant it that way,but it feels like it was rubbing in my face.

    • 40:20

      DANIELLE: And I wasn't trying to do that at all.

    • 40:22

      SHEA DUNHAM: Because you felt like you reallycouldn't compete, because she was your onlysexual experience.

    • 40:26

      JAY: Exactly.So like even when she became my only sexual experience,she even offered, so many times, like Jay,if you want to go ahead and be with another girl,by all means go.I'm looking like, in my head, if I do that, yougoing to want to do that again.So I was also-- I was so scared of that even happening.So I'm like, no, no, no.

    • 40:45

      DANIELLE: And I was just scared that.

    • 40:47

      SHEA DUNHAM: He would get too attached?

    • 40:49

      DANIELLE: Yes.So it was like me and her, we both had so many scares.And the thing was, like, when she thought that,because you my first.I mean, you know, she had me firstand all that, I'm going to just fall deeply in love with her.No, it wasn't that.

    • 41:04

      SHEA DUNHAM: Because you guys were alreadybuilding something.

    • 41:06

      JAY: Exactly.

    • 41:07

      SHEA DUNHAM: You know, he knew a lot about you.You knew a lot about him.Even before sex even happened, the two of youwere pretty close.

    • 41:15

      DANIELLE: So I want to say, for like six or sevenmonths before we had sex, we were just friends.

    • 41:22

      SHEA DUNHAM: How did the two of youprocess your first sexual experience together?[LAUGHTER]

    • 41:31

      DANIELLE: OK, well.

    • 41:33

      JAY: She made fun of me.

    • 41:34

      DANIELLE: I did not.

    • 41:35

      JAY: She--

    • 41:36

      DANIELLE: I did not make fun of him.

    • 41:37

      JAY: --made me feel bad at first.

    • 41:38

      DANIELLE: I did not.Actually, I was really quite niceabout it, because in my head--

    • 41:43

      JAY: No.She wasn't nice at all.

    • 41:45

      DANIELLE: --a bad woman.I was really upset.In my head, I was upset.And I did not let that out.

    • 41:50

      JAY: No.She let it out.

    • 41:51

      SHEA DUNHAM: But you definitely felt like.

    • 41:53

      JAY: No, no, she let it out.[Shea M. Dunham, Ph.D., Emotionally Focused Therapy,Associate Professor, Governors State University]

    • 41:55

      SHEA DUNHAM: So your first sexual experience,how you guys processed it, seemed like you processed it.

    • 41:60

      DANIELLE: I told myself I wasn't going to do that ever again.

    • 42:02

      SHEA DUNHAM: Because it was not the experienceyou had hoped it to be?

    • 42:08

      JAY: Yeah.

    • 42:08

      DANIELLE: Yeah.

    • 42:09


    • 42:10

      DANIELLE: Pretty much.I've never been with a virgin.It was my first virgin, so it's like-- even whenI was a virgin, I made sure that it wasn't a virgin.Like I made absolutely sure that it wasn't a virgin.I was like, both of us can't be.

    • 42:26

      SHEA DUNHAM: Virgin means something to you.

    • 42:28

      DANIELLE: Exactly.

    • 42:29

      SHEA DUNHAM: What does it mean?

    • 42:30

      DANIELLE: One, being stuck in inexperience.In my life, I didn't have enough time to myselfor to get away from my household.So I had to spend it wisely.I didn't have time to just play around.Like if I want to do something, I want to do something.And I got to make sure, OK, this isgoing to happen, this has got to happen,

    • 42:51

      DANIELLE [continued]: this got to happen for me to be able to have fun.

    • 42:53

      SHEA DUNHAM: So your views on virginityis why you gave him the option.If you want to go out and have other experiences,that's OK with me.

    • 43:02

      DANIELLE: Yes.Because I actually thought it would help to be truly honest.

    • 43:06

      SHEA DUNHAM: Help him be sexual with you?

    • 43:09

      DANIELLE: Help him be not actually sexual with me,actually just help with the process of-- it sounds bad--but not be so engaged to me.That terrifies me.

    • 43:27

      JAY: You see, that's the thing, because she alreadyknew about my past experiences of girls I'd dated.And the thing was, I had one particular girl I dated,and that was the one that I literally almost lostmy virginity to, because me and her was together for a while.And before me and her actually almost made to the intercourse,

    • 43:54

      JAY [continued]: she was just like, oh, I don't love you.I like this other guy.Me and her, I mean, we'd literally made a datethat we was going to have sex.We was like, yeah, yeah, let's make it happen.Then 30 minutes later, she called me and broke up with me.So I was like, what happened?Then the next thing you know, find out shewas wanting to be with him.

    • 44:15

      JAY [continued]: She already had plans to be with him and alsowith other guys before me.And I was like, why did you play me for so long?So when it came down to Danielle,and when it came down to our first time, it was like,hey, oh, my goodness, I actually fell for somebody who is just--

    • 44:35

      SHEA DUNHAM: Who is into you?

    • 44:36

      JAY: Yeah.

    • 44:37

      SHEA DUNHAM: Was just into you.

    • 44:37

      JAY: Into me.It wasn't what I could do for her,or it ain't because I got a car.It ain't because I got job and all this other stuff.

    • 44:45

      SHEA DUNHAM: It was just about Jay.

    • 44:46

      JAY: Yeah.And so when she called me up, and I was like, so, how was it?And she was hmm.Yeah.You wasn't that good.What?Mmm.Damn, I feel like I was just crushed.So I was like this then like this.

    • 45:00

      DANIELLE: It sounds bad.

    • 45:01

      SHEA DUNHAM: Hold on.After you heard that, because that's his experience--

    • 45:05

      DANIELLE: Mm hm.

    • 45:05

      SHEA DUNHAM: --after you heard that,how did you then process it with Danielle?

    • 45:12

      JAY: She was truthful.And I'd rather her be truthful to me then lying to me.Because like I said, I also go off so muchof my past experience with my family.And I had a father that would lie through his teethand would call you up and tell you, in a heartbeat, yeah,I'll be home for dinner.And you'd be like, OK.So I'd either wait outside the window,and I'm looking out the window.

    • 45:33

      JAY [continued]: And he never showed up.And then you call him back, you ain't get him.And then, you know, you get him, he was like,oh, yeah, I had to do this, and I couldn't make it.I'm sorry.

    • 45:43

      SHEA DUNHAM: So you respected her,even though there was that part of you who felt, god,that hurt a little bit.

    • 45:49

      JAY: Mm hm.

    • 45:52

      SHEA DUNHAM: That hurt a little bit.That you did respect her, because she was honest,because that was something that you had seen peoplelie and not follow through.

    • 46:00

      JAY: Exactly.

    • 46:01

      SHEA DUNHAM: But with her, you felt, hey,even though it wasn't the best experience,she had the courage to tell me.And did the two of you talk about whatyou guys can do to have a better sexual experience?

    • 46:13

      JAY: Actually.

    • 46:13

      DANIELLE: He made me his teacher.

    • 46:15

      JAY: Yeah, I told here, you will be my teacher.And not just that she became my teacher,I mean, at the same time, since shewas so truthful about stuff, I knewthat if anybody I wanted to be with sexually,I wanted to learn from her.If I knew that me and her weren'tgoing to be together then, I would have just said,OK, I'll leave it alone.But I already had in my heart that, yo, I'm

    • 46:37

      JAY [continued]: going to be her, regardless.

    • 46:39

      SHEA DUNHAM: Did it make you safer when you kind of tookon this teacher role with Jay?Did it keep you from stepping back and putting yourselfin a different place other than attached, he'sgoing to be attached to me?

    • 46:55

      DANIELLE: Actually, yeah.

    • 46:56

      SHEA DUNHAM: So that's that part of you that likes that freedom?

    • 46:59

      DANIELLE: Right.

    • 47:00

      SHEA DUNHAM: So now, we're going to move to the current partof your relationship sexually.How are the two of you doing sexually now?

    • 47:10

      JAY: I'd say we don't do it as much as we used to.But for the simple fact, we do work so much.

    • 47:17

      SHEA DUNHAM: When was the last time the two of you had sex?

    • 47:21

      JAY: Shoot, the past weekend?It wasn't?No, you weren't at home.I want to say it had to be Thursday, the past Thursday.

    • 47:35

      DANIELLE: Possibly.

    • 47:36

      JAY: Yeah.

    • 47:37

      SHEA DUNHAM: And on average.

    • 47:38

      DANIELLE: Yeah, because I was surprised.

    • 47:40

      JAY: Right

    • 47:41

      SHEA DUNHAM: On average, how often do you have sex?

    • 47:43

      JAY: Not like we used to.

    • 47:46

      SHEA DUNHAM: Give me a kind of a ballpark.

    • 47:48

      JAY: Oh, shoot.

    • 47:48

      DANIELLE: Once within a two-week time-frame?

    • 47:50

      JAY: Yeah.

    • 47:51

      SHEA DUNHAM: And is that very different for the two of you?

    • 47:53

      DANIELLE: Oh yeah.

    • 47:54

      JAY: Yeah.

    • 47:55

      DANIELLE: Well, I mean, yes.Technically, yes.Once we started living together, yes.

    • 47:59

      JAY: Yeah, because.

    • 48:00

      DANIELLE: At the time, we had no choice but to get used to it,because I lived in the city at the beginning.He lived out here.

    • 48:06

      JAY: And plus, by the time-- I would usuallygo to her house on the weekends.And when I used to make it to her house,she was doing so many chores for her grandmother,I'm talking about-- I was trying to pull her away,like even tomorrow.And so sexual-wise, we was not able to have sex until.

    • 48:23

      DANIELLE: Almost right before you leave?

    • 48:25

      JAY: Right.And if I wasn't leaving or we were about to go to sleep,if I'm going to sleep over there or we thinkwe're going to make a stop somewhere,we'll just say, OK, we got time in the car.

    • 48:35

      SHEA DUNHAM: At that time, you guyshad to really be purposeful.

    • 48:38

      DANIELLE: With our time, yeah.With our time.

    • 48:40

      SHEA DUNHAM: Has it changed since the affair came out?

    • 48:44

      JAY: Yes.Because the first time, I was just like, I reallydon't want do nothing with her, because Iwant her to get tested.Because we know how bad his name was out there already.And I was upset.I'm looking at her like, why would yougo to someone who you know that's really nasty out there.

    • 49:05

      SHEA DUNHAM: Did it change?I'm sorry.Go ahead, Jay.Go ahead.

    • 49:09

      JAY: Also, at the same time, I was like,anything that goes on with her, Iwant to go through it with her.So I mean I don't know any other wayto show her that I love her.I mean, I already was rubbing her back, taking care of her,trying to cook food.She was cooking food for me.

    • 49:27

      DANIELLE: I was going to say, don't make me.

    • 49:28

      JAY: No.I mean, she was doing things.And I was trying to do things.But it is like sexual-wise, it was like,OK, let me force myself to show her that youdon't need no one else.It's just me.

    • 49:41

      SHEA DUNHAM: So you was pushing through that pain and saying,well, you know, if we engage in sexual activity,then she won't want anyone else.

    • 49:50

      JAY: The thing with Danielle, it was like, when it came downto the affair, everything kept on escalating more and more.It was just an affair.There was more and more stuff that she kept on doing.I'm looking like, what else do I have to prove to you?I mean I'm breaking boundaries that I eventold myself I would never do.And I'm doing this to make you happy.

    • 50:13

      JAY [continued]: And it's like I was trying to be notjust that guy, but multiple, different guys justto make her happy.

    • 50:22

      SHEA DUNHAM: So Danielle, for you,did sex change from the result of the affair?

    • 50:29

      DANIELLE: It changed.From me, my sex drive, to me, has alwaysbeen higher than his.And I want to say, after-- especially after our daughter,my sexuality has just been crazy.It's like I'm able to control it now, but it's like to a pointwhere, it felt like, if I wasn't feeling good and I had sex,

    • 50:54

      DANIELLE [continued]: I was better.If I'm having a bad day, if we have sex, it would be better.It was like that.People get high.They smoke weed.Sex makes me high.That's my high-ness.

    • 51:10

      SHEA DUNHAM: And is that where you are now?

    • 51:11

      DANIELLE: Where I'm right now is just trying to be content.

    • 51:17

      SHEA DUNHAM: Content sexually?

    • 51:18

      DANIELLE: Mm hm.

    • 51:19

      SHEA DUNHAM: Because he has a lower sex drive?

    • 51:21

      JAY: That's what she thinks, that I have a lower sexdrive than her.

    • 51:24

      SHEA DUNHAM: Is it more for you justtrying to get through the pain and the hurt?

    • 51:28

      JAY: Yeah.Like you said, trying to get through the pain and the hurtand also because I do so much physical labor,my body is drained.It's like I have no energy whatsoever.Like I literally use every part of my muscles in my bodyjust so I can make ends meet.

    • 51:50

      JAY [continued]: I always use to tease her, you don'twork that hard at your job.I understand she do, because she's watching kids.

    • 51:56

      SHEA DUNHAM: But you do more physical labor?

    • 51:58

      JAY: Right.I'm pretty much lifting weights when I'm at my jobs.And when I get home, and she has this sex drive,I'm going be like, I won't be able to show herthat, you know, perform well.You know, any way you want to look at it,I'm going to be going to sleep on her.So instead of me making her look at me like, what the heck

    • 52:22

      JAY [continued]: you've been doing, I just tell her like, I can't do it.I'm too tired.

    • 52:26

      DANIELLE: But he got realize, he already made me feel bad,because when we were pregnant, as pregnant person, your sexdrive, you can't control it.Like some people theirs goes away.Mine, all it did was increase.I was literally sick from the beginningto the end of my pregnancies.And the only thing that actually made it better was having sex.

    • 52:47

      DANIELLE [continued]: I don't know if he realized it or not, and I told this before,but he made feel bad.Because he made it seem like I was literally raping him.

    • 52:54

      JAY: Oh, she was.

    • 52:55

      DANIELLE: See.

    • 52:56

      JAY: I'd be falling asleep, and then I'dthink, what the heck is going on?And I'm like, I can't do nothing.I can't do nothing.

    • 53:02

      DANIELLE: I mean between sickness and insomnia,I just wanted to go to sleep.Like that's it.I just literally wanted to go to sleep.And after our daughter-- she was born in 2012-- I can't.I refuse to have another I can't.My mental state will not take it.My body can't take it.So I made sure, you know.

    • 53:22

      SHEA DUNHAM: Outside of the actual physical act of sex,do the two of you spend time cuddling?

    • 53:28

      JAY: Oh, I love it.I love doing.

    • 53:30

      DANIELLE: When we can, yeah.

    • 53:31

      JAY: Yeah, when we have a chance to do that.She already know, I would rather not go out.I'd rather just put a movie on.I sound like the girl in the relationship sometimes.Because I'm like, let's put a movie on.Let's just cuddle with each other.

    • 53:46

      SHEA DUNHAM: And she wants more of the excitement.

    • 53:47

      DANIELLE: I want to go out.

    • 53:48

      JAY: Right, she want to go out.

    • 53:49

      DANIELLE: Cuddling's something that I'm not used to.

    • 53:53

      SHEA DUNHAM: That's part of you getting out of that box.

    • 53:55

      DANIELLE: Exactly.I'll tell him, I'm scared to be stuck.Because if I feel like I'm stuck,I don't know what's going to happen.And that's when things just start kind of unfolding,where I'm like, OK, even my emotional state was changed.Like I didn't care how you felt.I'm going to make sure I do what I'm supposed to do,

    • 54:17

      DANIELLE [continued]: do what I need to do.But when it came down to me, I'm like it's me.Why does it matter?Like OK.And if he was upset, I would listen to his feelings,but me trying to process him, how he actually felt,I couldn't.I was at a point where it was just like feelings were gone.I can literally sit there, you see nothing.

    • 54:39

      DANIELLE [continued]: I'm listening to you.

    • 54:41

      SHEA DUNHAM: You really just stepped out?

    • 54:43

      DANIELLE: I was gone.I checked out.

    • 54:44

      JAY: She think that I don't know all that.Most of the time, no, I knew that you wasn't there.

    • 54:48

      SHEA DUNHAM: That she was checking out on you?

    • 54:50

      JAY: Yeah.And I just thought that was hurting me,because when she had a problem going onor something like that, I'd listen to her.And it was like, you know guys, they usually don't do this.That's what you've been hearing on TV shows growing up.Guys don't listen to the woman's story, the girl's.But me, I'm different.

    • 55:08

      DANIELLE: And that's when I felt like Iwas a bother, because I'm like I know I'm taking himoutside a guy's norm.

    • 55:13

      JAY: And it's like I didn't look at it like whatever.I didn't know what a guy's norm is.To this very day, I still don't know.Because being raised as a man in the relationship,I mean, the man in the household and stufflike that, it was still saying, be there,be there for your woman, take care of her.That was the main man's role, be there to love your woman.And that's how I look at it.

    • 55:35

      JAY [continued]: I just want to be there for her.I didn't see her as nothing else, nothing more,except for my lover, my friend, my wife.

    • 55:42

      SHEA DUNHAM: So when we look at conflict between the two you--and correct me if I'm wrong-- you kind of check out.

    • 55:49

      DANIELLE: I have to.

    • 55:50

      SHEA DUNHAM: You check out.

    • 55:50

      DANIELLE: Because I'm scared that I'mgoing to have literally an emotional imbalancement.

    • 55:56

      SHEA DUNHAM: And you kind of pursue herto bring her back close to you, to tryto get an understanding of what'sgoing on in this relationship--

    • 56:04

      JAY: Yes.

    • 56:05

      SHEA DUNHAM: --so we can fix it.

    • 56:07

      JAY: Yes.

    • 56:08

      SHEA DUNHAM: That kind of seems like how your cycle is.You avoid it.And then you reach out and say, come closer, come closer.

    • 56:14

      DANIELLE: It's like he wants to pull.And I feel like he's trying to pull those emotions out.I don't want to experience them.And sometimes I literally just don't have them.Because I feel like, when I get there, it's hard for meto come back from there.

    • 56:28

      JAY: Because you see, when we began our relationship,it was the total opposite.I was the one that didn't really want to show so much emotions.And she wanted me to show her that I was concerned with her,I took her into consideration, I did this, I did that.And I'm looking like, OK, I will do this, but, if I do this,you know.

    • 56:46

      SHEA DUNHAM: So she pulled you out of your box,and she stayed in hers?

    • 56:49

      JAY: Right.So then now it's the opposite.So now she want to go ahead, and I'm like, yo, what about me?This is how you wanted me.Now, I'm this way.And now you're doing what I used to do.Now, what about you taking me into consideration?What about you taking me like that?And it's like, when she say, I need this,I need that, I'm looking like, wait a minute.

    • 57:08

      DANIELLE: Because this is something that I'm notused to saying, I need.I'm used to just doing for othersand not even taking myself into consideration.And like last year was the first yearwhere I felt like I need to be able to have fun.I need to be able to have happiness.And my happiness doesn't mean that it revolves around you.

    • 57:29

      DANIELLE [continued]: I need to be able to find me.And how can you be with-- and I got to the point where like,how can I be with somebody if I can't?I don't even know who I am.

    • 57:38

      JAY: Like I say, that was the total opposite,when the things switched up.Like now, she goes out, and I stay in the house.And the thing is, when I used to go to my brother's house.And she automatically thought I was probably going out thereto go to a bar or go to the clubsor do something like that.While, really, I was just going to my brother's house,

    • 57:58

      JAY [continued]: probably doing work over there or going to my mom's.

    • 58:01

      SHEA DUNHAM: You were using that time to kind of escapewhat was going on at home?

    • 58:05

      JAY: Right.She thought that I was really just going out thereto have a good time.But really she knew.I always told her that wasn't the case.Because if I would have brung her-- she was pregnant.And she really.

    • 58:15

      DANIELLE: I was stuck in the house.

    • 58:17

      JAY: As being pregnant, she was still trying to do work.

    • 58:19

      SHEA DUNHAM: And that's another box for you.That's another way where you're confined and can't be you.So you step outside the box in other waysexcept for emotionally.

    • 58:29

      DANIELLE: Correct.

    • 58:30

      SHEA DUNHAM: And you got him steppingoutside the box emotionally.

    • 58:33

      JAY: Mm hm.

    • 58:34

      SHEA DUNHAM: Here's what I notice about the two of you,that even though you guys have hit this adjustmentperiod, this rough patch, you definitelycan see the love between the two of you.You definitely can see where Jay is--

    • 58:46

      JAY: Oh, I'm in love.

    • 58:46

      SHEA DUNHAM: --Jay is reaching for you.And you seem like that you want to have that abilityto reach back.

    • 58:52

      DANIELLE: I'm trying.

    • 58:53

      SHEA DUNHAM: Yeah.So you definitely can see that between the two of you.And I just want you two to know that it'spossible to have the relationship that youwant and desire.It's just going to take some time to kind of workon those things.You, outside your box emotionally,coming in a little bit.And you letting her come in a little bit

    • 59:13

      SHEA DUNHAM [continued]: and be more receptive to that.So it's a definitely a possibility.And you can have the relationship that you desire.So I just want you two to have hope in that journey.

    • 59:24

      JAY: Cool.Thank you.

    • 59:25

      SHEA DUNHAM: Well, it was nice meeting you both.I enjoyed our time together.And I look forward to our next session.

    • 59:31

      DANIELLE: Exactly.

    • 59:32

      JAY: Thank you.[Emotionally Focused Therapy, A DiscussionWith SHANNON B. DERMER, Ph.D., SESSION 1]

    • 59:52

      SHANNON DERMER: Dr. Dunham, thank youfor that great session.I'm going to ask you a bunch of questions.But the first one is do you prefer Shea or Dr. Dunham?

    • 01:00:00

      SHEA DUNHAM: Dr. Dunham is fine.

    • 01:00:02

      SHANNON DERMER: OK, Dr. Dunham.You can call me Dr. Dermer.I'm just kidding.Now, you were doing emotionally focused couplestherapy, correct?

    • 01:00:13

      SHEA DUNHAM: Correct.[Shannon B. Dermer, Ph.D., Chair, Divisionof Psychology and Counseling, [Governors State University]

    • 01:00:15

      SHANNON DERMER: What parts of that sessiondo you feel like were closest to gettingto the heart of emotion focus?I know it was just an assessment,but I could see you moving at certain spots.So what do you think you're really going after in session?

    • 01:00:30

      SHEA DUNHAM: Trying to understand their cycleand how they process their relationship,how they process certain experienceswithin their relationship.

    • 01:00:39

      SHANNON DERMER: OK, so there was a few times where you saidlike, how did you understand thator how did you guys experience thator how did you discuss that.So that's where you're trying to understandtheir pattern, their way of dealing with reallyemotional experiences?

    • 01:00:53

      SHEA DUNHAM: Yeah, and help them explore their processto make sure that they are getting to the placewhere they can be more transparent in the session,getting them to a place where they kind of feelcomfortable so we can build that very strong alliance with oneanother.

    • 01:01:07

      SHANNON DERMER: Oh, OK, so part of helping them to processand understanding-- like I noticed, a lot of times,that you would interpret for them sometimes--

    • 01:01:15

      SHEA DUNHAM: Correct.

    • 01:01:16

      SHANNON DERMER: --and say like was this going onor was that going on.So part of that is helping them to process.But also part of that is helping to build a relationshipwith you?

    • 01:01:25

      SHEA DUNHAM: Absolutely.

    • 01:01:27

      SHANNON DERMER: OK.And why is that important in EFT,to build a relationship with you?

    • 01:01:31

      SHEA DUNHAM: Because it's really important for themto have that experience, so they can feel,one, that I'm competent, that I can be genuine with them.That way, they'll be willing to expand and exploretheir interactional patterns.Without that, they won't give me whatI need in order to see their relationshipand see any type of attachment injuries.

    • 01:01:52

      SHEA DUNHAM [continued]: So being genuine, showing them that I'm competentallows them to be more transparent and open with me.

    • 01:01:60

      SHANNON DERMER: So I know, from an EFT perspective,that part of your goal is to help them be vulnerablewith each other, but you also wantto make sure that it's safe for them to be vulnerable with you.

    • 01:02:11

      SHEA DUNHAM: Absolutely.Absolutely.

    • 01:02:13

      SHANNON DERMER: Now with this couple,there's a lot we could go into it with EFT.

    • 01:02:17

      SHEA DUNHAM: Yeah.

    • 01:02:18

      SHANNON DERMER: And I do want to, in future sessions,as we have four more to explore what you're doing with them.But one of things I know is that EFT hasn't been explicitlyused a lot with African American couples.

    • 01:02:31

      SHEA DUNHAM: No, it hasn't.Do you think there was anything differentabout this first session, because they'rean African American couple versus maybe another couplethat you'd be using EFT with?

    • 01:02:42

      SHEA DUNHAM: Yeah, I think some of the things that I probablywish I could have went into but didn't wouldhave been talking to them about their spiritual background.Sometimes African Americans have a different experiencewhen they've been raised in a very religious family.They have a different experience if they are raisedby single parent families.

    • 01:03:02

      SHEA DUNHAM [continued]: Sometimes you'll see the woman bemuch more independent when she's been raised by a single parent.And I would have liked to explore that a little bit more.

    • 01:03:12

      SHANNON DERMER: Yeah, I know he didnotice-- I had written it down.He said something about the church, that one of the reasonsthat he had abstained from having sex earlier on,he said he learned in the church.You give yourself to the church.And you give yourself to the person that you love.And so she was the only person that he had had sex with.

    • 01:03:35

      SHANNON DERMER [continued]: And so I could hear a little bit of that church background.I mean there's lots of people from all different backgroundswho have single parents and things like that.But there seemed to be a particular emphasisfor this couple of take care of business.

    • 01:03:49

      SHEA DUNHAM: Right.

    • 01:03:49

      SHANNON DERMER: Do you think that relates to thembeing African American at all?

    • 01:03:52

      SHEA DUNHAM: Absolutely.I think if we even go back to slaveryand look at how it's been very much entrenched in that cultureto be about business and to be about your family,to be about taking care of the most important aspects of,if you don't do anything else, how you can validate yourselfas a man is how you take care your family.And I think that some of the residue of slavery

    • 01:04:15

      SHEA DUNHAM [continued]: in terms of making sure that how you express yourselfin a man way is how you provide for your family.

    • 01:04:25

      SHANNON DERMER: Yeah, I think both of themtalked about that a lot.As a wife and as a woman, you justgot to put your need to the side,sometimes, and take care of business.And for him, it was about working hardand taking care of his wife and just taking care of business.

    • 01:04:39

      SHEA DUNHAM: Can we go back for just a moment.I wanted to talk about their spirituality.Because I didn't get into that.But I got a sense that that maybesome residue of spirituality with her as well.And where I picked that up is whenshe starts to talk about her background, her grandmother.I really would have liked to see if some spirituality had

    • 01:04:59

      SHEA DUNHAM [continued]: been really practiced there.Because she talked about feeling so in this box.And he talks about the box also.I'm really curious, as we go on, in future sessions, if Ican be able to explore that and seeif religion does play a major role in how they chooseto operate with each other and operatein their everyday lives.

    • 01:05:21

      SHANNON DERMER: So for African American couples,you especially like to look at that, because,even if they're not going to church all the timeor even if they are, there's a spiritual base to the culture.

    • 01:05:30

      SHEA DUNHAM: Absolutely.

    • 01:05:31

      SHANNON DERMER: It's a protective factor.

    • 01:05:33

      SHEA DUNHAM: Is a protective factor.It also kind of colors your lens inhow you operate with your partner.She talked about being responsible for everything.And if you look into the African American church,women are held to a high standard.And I wonder if grandmother-- you know,

    • 01:05:55

      SHEA DUNHAM [continued]: I kind of picture a grandmother sitting on the end of the pewand having all this influence over her.I'm just really curious to see if spirituality reallydoes play a huge role in how theyprocess their relationship, how they process their roles.She talked a lot about getting out, getting out.

    • 01:06:13

      SHANNON DERMER: Getting out of the box.When you say she helped pull him out of the box,but she stayed in.

    • 01:06:19

      SHEA DUNHAM: Yes.She stayed in very much so with her emotions.

    • 01:06:22

      SHANNON DERMER: Yes.OK, going back to African American couples.And like I said, I think most EFT people would say,because the focus is on basic emotions, fear, love, joy,some of those things, anger.And the premise for EFT is like, well,

    • 01:06:44

      SHANNON DERMER [continued]: that's shared cross-culturally.You know, regardless of your culture,those primary emotions that you have as an infantare expressed basically in the same way, regardlessof race, religion, geography, things like that.So why do you try to practice EFT a little bit differentwith African American couples?

    • 01:07:04

      SHEA DUNHAM: Because when African Americans go outside--[Shea M. Dunham, Ph.D., Emotionally Focused Therapy,Associate Professor, Governors State University]--they have to put on this protective shield,based off their race, their racial experiences.When they come home and creating that ability to take that off,to take that off and be vulnerable.

    • 01:07:18

      SHANNON DERMER: You're talking about racism,to protect themselves from racism?

    • 01:07:20

      SHEA DUNHAM: Yes, yeah, protect themselvesfrom racism and some of those microaggressions.And to come home and be themselves.It's really hard to take that mask off,because they've been practicing itin multiple areas of their life.But also, too, they've been taught that by their parents.They've been taught that by their grandparents based offtheir experiences with racism, their experiences

    • 01:07:40

      SHEA DUNHAM [continued]: with being in a minority role.So any emotion focus, we'll talk a little bitabout what it is to be a black man.In emotionally focused, we'll talk about whatit is to be a black woman.Because being a black man and a black womanis very different than being a white man,a white women in America.It's very different.

    • 01:08:01

      SHANNON DERMER: So one of the keys to emotionally focusedtherapy is being--[Shannon B. Dermer, Ph.D., Chair, Division of Pyschologyand Counseling, Governors State University]--vulnerable in an emotional way, beingvulnerable with your partner, and thenallowing him or her to be vulnerable with you.But it sounds like what you're sayingis that, for many African Americans or many minoritiesor marginalized groups in the United States,

    • 01:08:23

      SHANNON DERMER [continued]: it's not always safe to be vulnerable.

    • 01:08:25

      SHEA DUNHAM: Absolutely.

    • 01:08:25

      SHANNON DERMER: And you're taught not to be vulnerable.So then it's hard, when you're alwaystaught to protect yourself and not be vulnerable out here,to then go home and be vulnerable with your spouseor partner.

    • 01:08:36

      SHEA DUNHAM: Absolutely.Absolutely.

    • 01:08:39

      SHANNON DERMER: So you spend more time?I mean, it's hard for most people to be vulnerable,especially when they're having problems in their relationship.But you think you explore a little bit moreof a cultural piece not just a relationshippiece to that difficulty of being vulnerable?

    • 01:08:54

      SHEA DUNHAM: It's kind of like a two-step process, beingblack or African American in a worldand how do you still be black and beemotional with your partner when you have been taughteverything that says, don't be those things.So how do you get them to that place?And so you have to actually put that on the table

    • 01:09:14

      SHEA DUNHAM [continued]: and dissect that a little more.And I think you don't have to do that with a majority culture.

    • 01:09:20

      SHANNON DERMER: Well, maybe a little bit morebased on gender, like how, in some ways,you're restricted as a male or a female.But interestingly, in this particular couple,I think the husband said it like, oh, sometimes I'mthe woman in the relationship.He seemed to be a little bit more emotional or more

    • 01:09:40

      SHANNON DERMER [continued]: the pursuer, which sometimes we see the woman usuallymore being the pursuer.

    • 01:09:46

      SHEA DUNHAM: And he kind of talked about thoughthat he had to learn to be that way.It wasn't something that he was just easily grabbed toand did well.It's something he had to learn, because hesaw it was important for his partner.But how does he deal with those combatingforces that say don't be that way from a male perspective

    • 01:10:09

      SHEA DUNHAM [continued]: but also an African American perspective?

    • 01:10:13

      SHANNON DERMER: There's so many things we could go into,but we don't have that much more time.We probably have about five more minutes.But I wanted to ask you why you talked about sex so muchand what sex means from an EFT perspective?

    • 01:10:26

      SHEA DUNHAM: I think it's really important to kind of reallyunderstand how they attach to each otherin a sexual capacity.Because I think once you get an understanding of that,you understand how they are or are notbeing emotionally vulnerable just from one slice of the pie.And it lets you open up the pie even larger as you go on.

    • 01:10:50

      SHANNON DERMER: I mean we can be open and emotional andvulnerable in lots of ways.But sex is certainly a way, if it'sbeing done in an intimate, emotional way,that people can either be extremely intimate,or they can hide from intimacy, and it can justbe a physical act also.

    • 01:11:08

      SHEA DUNHAM: And one reason why I continued that role,because she talked about sex very differently as beinga controlling factor, that she was able to use itis a release for her.So it was really interesting to see how that would impact himfrom an attachment perspective, how it would impact her,if she separates herself from the emotional part of sex,

    • 01:11:33

      SHEA DUNHAM [continued]: how it impacts their relationship.

    • 01:11:36

      SHANNON DERMER: Yeah, she really talked about ita little bit more as like a release, more of a body typething.And he talked about it little bit that way also,but he talked also about more of an emotional thing,giving yourself to someone, connecting yourself to someone.

    • 01:11:52

      SHEA DUNHAM: Absolutely.

    • 01:11:53

      SHANNON DERMER: But there seemed to be a pattern of her beingafraid of being needed too much or wanted too muchby her husband.

    • 01:12:01

      SHEA DUNHAM: Absolutely.It seems like she is concerned about that overall in her life,being the only anything to anybody.And so it seems like that's somethingthat she struggles with and whichcauses her to kind of step out.She talks about just pushing herself out, avoidingsituations, because she doesn't want to be the anything

    • 01:12:22

      SHEA DUNHAM [continued]: and everything to anyone.

    • 01:12:24

      SHANNON DERMER: Yeah.Well, I mean she talked about whenshe was younger that being difficult,because she never got to be anything just for herself.It was always she was taking care of other peopleand their expectations on her.And I don't think she would disagree with thisif she was here right now.She sometimes, on purpose-- I can't speak-- withdraws

    • 01:12:48

      SHANNON DERMER [continued]: by like going out or putting a little distancebetween her and her husband.So if you had to guess, right now, just guess,what would you say each one of their attachment stylesare, in their role, in their pattern?

    • 01:13:06

      SHEA DUNHAM: I would say that he is the pursuer.She is the avoidant or with withdrawer.Her attachment style would be avoidant.His attachment style would be anxious.They kind of cope with those stylesin order to maintain their cycle.

    • 01:13:25

      SHANNON DERMER: So it's interesting,because one of things I noticed isa lot of times, when someone has a more anxious attachmentstyle, then, in order to solve things,they pursue the other person a little bit more.They want to make things better and spend more timewith the other person.But if the other person is-- you said withdrawer, right,

    • 01:13:47

      SHANNON DERMER [continued]: and avoidance attachment, then whatone person is doing to help the relationship make it better,what does that do to the other person?

    • 01:13:56

      SHEA DUNHAM: Pushes them out.Pushes them away.And we definitely see that when she talksabout being stuck in that box.It just pushes her away.She feels, probably, very much so overwhelmed.And so she just shuts down.And she says, I have nothing else to give.I have nothing else to give.

    • 01:14:14

      SHANNON DERMER: We have to wrap up in a minute.But just in future sessions, then,who do you usually start with then, the pursueror the withdrawer?

    • 01:14:25

      SHEA DUNHAM: You typically start with the withdrawerin order to get them reengaged.

    • 01:14:29

      SHANNON DERMER: So instead of having him pursue more, whichis just going to push her away more,you might kind of put him on hold a little bitand have her become a little bit more comfortable with movingmore toward him?

    • 01:14:40

      SHEA DUNHAM: Absolutely.

    • 01:14:41

      SHANNON DERMER: And not away?

    • 01:14:43

      SHEA DUNHAM: Mm hm.

    • 01:14:44

      SHANNON DERMER: Well, I'll be veryinterested to see what you do with them in future sessions.

    • 01:14:48

      SHEA DUNHAM: They're a great couple.I look forward to working with them.

    • 01:14:50

      SHANNON DERMER: They were.They were very open and honest.And so I think that we'll see some great thingsin the next few sessions.Thank you.

    • 01:14:56


Emotionally Focused Therapy: Session 1

View Segments Segment :


Over the course of five counseling sessions, Shea Dunham works with Danielle and Jay, a married couple who have come to therapy to work on trust in their marriage. Danielle recently had an affair with a former boyfriend, and the couple is at a crossroads, trying to regain trust and intimacy. Danielle has shut down emotionally, and Jay is desperate to make the marriage work. Dunham works with the couple on how to repair attachment injuries, negotiate different attachment styles, and build security and trust in the relationship. Shea Dunham, PhD, is a licensed mental health counselor and associate professor at Governors State University. She works from an emotionally focused perspective and is an expert in family systems theory. She has published several professional articles in the area of counseling and is coeditor of Poisonous Parenting: Toxic Relationships Between Parents and Their Adult Children. She is also currently working on The Emotionally Focused Guide to Revisioning African American Relationships. Complete Counseling: From First to Last Session takes the viewer through five sessions with the same client. Viewers will witness how clients change from session to session, how the approach to treatment changes over time, and how various therapeutic interventions are applied in different situations.

Emotionally Focused Therapy: Session 1

Over the course of five counseling sessions, Shea Dunham works with Danielle and Jay, a married couple who have come to therapy to work on trust in their marriage. Danielle recently had an affair with a former boyfriend, and the couple is at a crossroads, trying to regain trust and intimacy. Danielle has shut down emotionally, and Jay is desperate to make the marriage work. Dunham works with the couple on how to repair attachment injuries, negotiate different attachment styles, and build security and trust in the relationship. Shea Dunham, PhD, is a licensed mental health counselor and associate professor at Governors State University. She works from an emotionally focused perspective and is an expert in family systems theory. She has published several professional articles in the area of counseling and is coeditor of Poisonous Parenting: Toxic Relationships Between Parents and Their Adult Children. She is also currently working on The Emotionally Focused Guide to Revisioning African American Relationships. Complete Counseling: From First to Last Session takes the viewer through five sessions with the same client. Viewers will witness how clients change from session to session, how the approach to treatment changes over time, and how various therapeutic interventions are applied in different situations.

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