Brief, Strengths-Based, Collaborative Therapy: Session 4

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    • 00:00

      [MUSIC PLAYING][COMPLETE COUNSELING From First to Last Session][Brief, Strengths Based, Collaborative Therapywith Matthew D Selekman, MSW, LCSW, Session 4]

    • 00:23

      [Host Shannon B Dermer PhD]

    • 00:29

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: Well, I'm blessed with your art worktoday.I would love to take a look at each piece that you brought in.And maybe you could tell me something about-- what about--let me see this first one.Is that--

    • 00:41

      SPEAKER 1: This one?

    • 00:41

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: Yeah, what is that?

    • 00:42

      SPEAKER 1: It's a peacock.

    • 00:43

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: A peacock.And what was your inspiration with this?

    • 00:47

      SPEAKER 1: Um, that their feathers are reallybeautiful and colorful. [Matthew D Selekman MSW, LCSW, Breif,Strength Based Collaborative Therapy, Director, Partnersfor Collaborative Solutions] I stuckwith just a couple colors.I didn't want it to go all crazy.

    • 00:58

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: I love what you did down herewith the feathers.It's beautiful.And you just drew this from scratch or looking at an image?

    • 01:06

      SPEAKER 1: Yeah, I looked at an image as a reference.But I kind of put my own ideas in there.

    • 01:11

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: Wow.I love it.

    • 01:12

      SPEAKER 1: Like the wing or whatever.I don't know.

    • 01:18

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: That's very cool the way you did that.

    • 01:19

      SPEAKER 1: Yeah, looks like a fish kind of.

    • 01:21

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: Yeah, that's what I was going to say,like scales and stuff.It's very cool, beautiful.Do have a name for your work here?

    • 01:28

      SPEAKER 1: Uh, uh.

    • 01:29

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: And you have, what, two other-- let'ssee what this other one is.Wow.Is this a parrot or what is this?

    • 01:40

      SPEAKER 1: Um-- I forgot the-- what is it?

    • 01:44

      SPEAKER 2: Tu--

    • 01:44

      SPEAKER 1: No, it's not a toucan.

    • 01:46

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: Yeah, it sort oflooks like a cross between a parrot and a toucan,but it's beautiful.And tell me about this one.What inspired you to do this one?

    • 01:55

      SPEAKER 1: Again, like the-- they're actually both birds.Actually, this one is more beautiful than this one,because this one is more majestic and is more free.And it's more like-- I don't know-- appealing,more appealing to me.

    • 02:13

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: I love it.I love the colors.The colors are just like perfect together.They really work together.So you're really big on birds?Is that like the type of animal that you like to do?

    • 02:23

      SPEAKER 1: Yeah, they're easy to draw.The hard part is coloring them, like the exact color shade.It's really unique that a bird canhave green and yellow and red and blue wings.It's weird.

    • 02:41

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: Yeah, that's fantastic.Wow.How long did it take you to make that?

    • 02:46

      SPEAKER 1: About a week.

    • 02:47

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: Wow.That's really--

    • 02:48

      SPEAKER 1: Because I had to do blending and all that.

    • 02:51

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: You need to have your own life gallery.Or we need to have you exhibit it somewhere--Art Institute of Chicago.It's beautiful.

    • 02:60

      SPEAKER 2: A macaw?

    • 03:01

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: Yes, there we go.It's sort of like a cross between a toucan and parrot.

    • 03:06

      SPEAKER 2: Right.

    • 03:07

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: OK, and tell me about this.This is splendid--

    • 03:12

      SPEAKER 1: San Francisco.

    • 03:13

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: This is the Golden Gate Bridge?

    • 03:15

      SPEAKER 1: Yep, the Golden Gate Bridge.

    • 03:16

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: Were you there?

    • 03:17

      SPEAKER 1: No.I just-- I wish I was there.I like the bridge.

    • 03:22

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: That is fantastic.And I love the way you did it.Rather than having it all in the center,you kind of have it off to the sides.Really beautiful.It's sort of like a perspective.Tell me about-- how come the San Francisco Golden Gate Bridge.What was your--

    • 03:39

      SPEAKER 1: Well, at first I was thinkingof drawing-- what is it?The one in New York?

    • 03:47

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: Oh, the Brooklyn Bridge?

    • 03:48

      SPEAKER 1: Yeah, the Brooklyn Bridge.I have a picture of it.But it was just like too big.It was really big.And this one-- I don't know.So I picked this one.And my reference was obviously in color.But it was just really beautiful.So I just went for that.

    • 04:06

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: Well, it looks like a photographin black and white.It's fantastic.And I love this little boat here.And you can see more boats.And I guess, is that the city in back?

    • 04:17

      SPEAKER 1: It's just like some houses and like buildings.

    • 04:20

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: Really beautiful.You are so talented.And thank you so much for bringing this in.I love seeing people's creative art.Do you think that that's somethingthat you'll continue when you go to college that you'll maybetake some art classes?

    • 04:36

      SPEAKER 1: It's a hobby.

    • 04:38

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: Or outside of school?

    • 04:40

      SPEAKER 1: I don't think so.It's just a hobby.I already know how to do this.I just need the materials.

    • 04:46

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: Yeah, well, I think you're really talented.

    • 04:49

      SPEAKER 1: Thank you.

    • 04:49

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: And thank you for bringing that in.So I wanted to ask the two of you, what'sbetter since I saw you last?

    • 04:58

      SPEAKER 2: Just our relationship, things at home.

    • 05:01

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: How's your relationship?

    • 05:02

      SPEAKER 2: Well, again, you know me.I always want her to let me know where she's at.So she's trying.

    • 05:07

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: So she's been making an effort to do that?

    • 05:10

      SPEAKER 2: Yeah.

    • 05:10

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: Cool.Have you been keeping the lines of communication open a bit?

    • 05:13

      SPEAKER 1: Yeah, sometimes.

    • 05:17

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: What else is better since I saw you last?

    • 05:24

      SPEAKER 1: I don't know.

    • 05:25

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: How about you and mom,anything there that you are pleased with?

    • 05:34

      SPEAKER 1: I don't know.What did we do?We didn't do anything over the weekend because we were sick.I mean, she let me stay home from school.

    • 05:43

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: That's cool.

    • 05:44

      SPEAKER 1: Because she understood that I get sick.

    • 05:50

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: And you didn't use that time to catch upschool work or anything?You just kind of chilled?

    • 05:56

      SPEAKER 1: Mm, hmm.

    • 05:57


    • 05:57

      SPEAKER 2: And went to the doctor.

    • 06:02

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: So it was kind of a relaxingweekend for everybody, because there was illness in the air.

    • 06:09

      SPEAKER 1: Mm, hmm.

    • 06:10

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: You know, one thing I was thinking aboutlast week, which I was really impressed with you,and I forgot to mention the last time we were together.When I asked you where you rated yourself at,you said, an 8 plus, and you were shooting for a 9.And I thought about this, and I was thinking, one,

    • 06:31

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: this is really incredible that you on some levelkind of told yourself maybe that I could have done better.So you sort of like reflected on your own actionsover the weekend-- I know I can do better than this.And then the other thing I was thinking aboutwas mom as at an 8.

    • 06:51

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: And you were at an 8 plus.And I was thinking, it's about teamwork.You guys are the A team.So you decided to just like slow down a bitso mom could catch up.I thought that was great.I don't know if you thought about that,but I thought that was wonderful.And it looks like there was something elsethat we've added to the A team's victories over here.

    • 07:12

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: Can you tell me about that?

    • 07:14

      SPEAKER 2: Well, again, because we're all sick.I wasn't in the mood.I just wanted to relax and not have any arguments.

    • 07:22

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: Was there a challenge coming your wayfrom Steve or any of the other kids?

    • 07:28

      SPEAKER 2: Yeah, from both Steve and the kids.Well, not my other daughter.She's kind of mellow.She doesn't give me trouble.

    • 07:35

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: The next oldest one?

    • 07:36

      SPEAKER 2: My youngest.

    • 07:37

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: The youngest one, OK.And so you were getting these challenges left and right.People are throwing spears at you, verbal spears.And you were dodging them?

    • 07:45

      SPEAKER 2: Just a few, just a few.

    • 07:47

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: And you wrote, not in the mood, let it go.And that must be-- you mentioned that the last time wewere together.That must be like a neon sign in your mind.that's flashing on and off.

    • 07:57

      SPEAKER 2: I think so.

    • 07:59

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: So what percentage of the timewould you say over the past week you guys havebeen in charge of I'm right pattern versus the I'mright pattern getting the best of you and your relationships?What would you say?Last week I think you were at 90% in charge.

    • 08:14

      SPEAKER 2: I think the same.

    • 08:16

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: About 90%.OK.And you know, one thing about these kind of patterns thathave been around for a while and have been pushing allyour relationships around is that they'rekind of like sneaky characters, that whenyou think you're out of harm's wayand you're totally in charge of it,sometimes it will sneak up on you, especially if there's

    • 08:37

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: tension in the air or conflict or tired or you're sickor whatever.So it's important for us to kind of be on our toes.One of the things that we didn't spend a lot of timewith-- I mean, we talked about hiccupsand how they come and go.

    • 08:56

      SPEAKER 2: Correct.

    • 08:56

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: And you guys havebeen good at sort of catching when those hiccups happen,and then taking immediate action to not allow it to becomea big problem situation.But I'm going to ask you a tough question.And that is what would each of youhave to do to make your situation go backwards?Back to square one at this point?

    • 09:17

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: What would make things go backwards?Things that you used to do that got you into troublewith one another?

    • 09:26

      SPEAKER 1: Doing things and saying thingsthat we know that will make the other personwant to say something bad back.And just like holding it in.Thinking you before you react.

    • 09:43

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: And how about for you, Raquel?What kinds of things could you dothat maybe would make things go backwards with you and Lydia?

    • 09:52

      SPEAKER 2: Responding too quickly,like she said, not thinking before you respond, snapping.So not being mindful.So that's what I try to do now.Mindful, be aware of what's goingto happen if you open your mouth too quickly.I think it out in my head first.But being patient is one of my weaknesses, where

    • 10:14

      SPEAKER 2 [continued]: I need to-- I don't want to finish-- lettingher finish explaining something to me,I go ahead and snap back too fast.So patience it what I have to learn.

    • 10:27

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: How about you and Steve?Other than what you already mentioned, anything elsethat if you stop doing it, it would leadto more clashes with Steve?

    • 10:37

      SPEAKER 2: If I would stop, again, not being patientin my response.Responding to quickly, then it canescalate to something, what it used to be before.So just now responding too quickly.

    • 10:59

      SPEAKER 2 [continued]: And being aware, that, OK, I'm starting to get hot headed.But let's calm down.Think it over.

    • 11:08

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: Good, and I bet youwhen you have that kind of dialogue inside your mindthat this pattern gets very frustrated with you,because it doesn't like people thatare very mindful and thoughtful and planning out every movethey make.This pattern gets very frustrated with that.How about you and your relationship with Luke?

    • 11:29

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: What kinds of things could you go revertback into that would get you into trouble with him?

    • 11:36

      SPEAKER 1: The I'm right pattern, like I'm always right.Not hearing him out.That's basically what gets on his nerves.So every time he says something I'm just going to be like, OK,let me see if you are right.

    • 11:58

      SPEAKER 1 [continued]: But I still have my thoughts in the back of my head.But, of course, I don't tell him straightup I know you're wrong.Like no, because that's not right.Because you might be right.

    • 12:09

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: OK.I want to come back to other things that are going well.And I'm wondering if you each of youhave noticed sort of changes with your menin terms of the changes of the you've made,and how they seem to be responding differently to you,or have maybe even acknowledged that I appreciate when you said

    • 12:33

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: that, or they just seem to be interacting with each of youin a better way.Have you noticed that with Steve at all?

    • 12:42

      SPEAKER 2: Mm, a touch, but not a lot.Yeah, he just seems to calm down.If I don't say anything in response to him,then he'll calm down.

    • 12:53

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: So is he calmed down faster nowthat you've made these changes?Or--

    • 12:58

      SPEAKER 2: Sort of, sort of.Or if I don't add anything to it,then he won't go any further and shoutor whatever the case may be.So the situation just calms down.He comes down.

    • 13:13

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: Has Luke made any comments at allabout you kind of being more listening to himbetter or not responding in any--

    • 13:25

      SPEAKER 1: I think he naturally just absorb-- like he sees it,but he doesn't think of it.So when I don't do it, he doesn't think of it,like, oh, she's not doing what she used to be doing.And he just goes up the flow.

    • 13:43

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: Do you think that the changesthat you've made have strengthened your relationshipwith Luke?

    • 13:49

      SPEAKER 1: Yes, because we don't fightas much like about that problem, about me being always right.

    • 13:57

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: Good, and have younoticed a reduction in arguments with Stevesince you made these adjustments?

    • 14:04

      SPEAKER 2: Yeah, mm, hmm.

    • 14:05

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: And has that reduced the stress levelfor you with all these kids and everythingto not also have to deal with him too?

    • 14:13

      SPEAKER 2: It does.It does.

    • 14:15

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: All right, so Iwant to test the waters again.What would be some worst case scenarios thatcould potentially crop up, let's say over the next weeksor months, that might attempt to derail each of you?Like right now, you're on track.You're going strong, the A team at its best here.

    • 14:38

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: But there are certain things thathappen that are beyond our control, that could trip us up.And sometimes we get lead footed againand fall back into our old habits.And I'm wondering, can each of youthink of potential worst case scenarios that might leadyou to clashing with Steve?Or something like that?

    • 14:58

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: Or each other?

    • 14:59

      SPEAKER 2: Right, it all depends on the type of moodthat he might be in.He might be impatient or have a short fuseone day due to something that might have happened at work.So he comes home in a bad move and we might be a good mood.And then something could start.

    • 15:22

      SPEAKER 2 [continued]: But then that's when I got to be calm.Again, just hear him out.Because it's something that he's going through,and he doesn't realize that he's bringing it home now.Because that has happened in the past.

    • 15:40


    • 15:41

      SPEAKER 2: Mm, hmm.

    • 15:41

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: OK.And how about for yourself, Lydia?What would be some worst case scenario,something-- because Luke sounds like a great guy,but nobody's perfect.I'm sure he's got his dark side, certain things that he does,habits that you don't like.What could be something that maybe Luke could say or dothat might set you off and maybe fall prey to the I'm

    • 16:03

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: right pattern or something else so youmight do that he may not like?

    • 16:10

      SPEAKER 1: Well, I guess this is natural for relationshipproblems, but he has a tendency to sometimes tell mewhat to do.And I'll do it.I'll just be respectful.But then sometimes I'm in those moods where I'm like,no, I don't want to-- I don't want to just follow through

    • 16:36

      SPEAKER 1 [continued]: with what you want all the time.What if we don't want that?So I just start thinking.And then, like every girl problem,let me talk to my girlfriend.And of course, they're like, no, don't do that.And that causes problems.And he doesn't like that.

    • 16:54

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: OK.So it sounds like you have to be kind of strategic in termsof knowing when to kind of stand up for yourselfand assert yourself and or how you handle that.I mean, you can handle that in a positive wayand kind of put your foot down with him and say, look,I don't see eye to eye or whatever.

    • 17:17

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: But you've got to be careful how you deal with that.So he doesn't like when you go to your girlfriend's?Like tag team wrestling?

    • 17:25

      SPEAKER 1: No, he does not.

    • 17:27

      SPEAKER 2: For advice.

    • 17:29

      SPEAKER 1: Because they always would go with me.I tell them my point of view.Because I'm like he's over here timemy friend his point of view.So that's all she knows, how I feel about it.

    • 17:43

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: So has there been a timerecently where maybe you and him hada disagreement about something.And instead of going to your girlfriendsto get the cheerleading squad behind,you decided to kind of try to solve this with himand you succeeded?

    • 18:02

      SPEAKER 1: Well, it happened over the weekend,the same problem, like he wanted me to do something.I didn't want to do it, like talk to somebody.And I was like, they're just a friend.You know, why don't you like them?He was just like, I just don't know them.And I understood that, because I don'twant him talking to somebody that I don't now, because I

    • 18:25

      SPEAKER 1 [continued]: don't know that person.But the person goes to our school.And he sees them every day.And I say hi to him like a friend.And I wasn't clicking.I'm just like, you can trust me.

    • 18:41

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: And so you wanted to solve it with them.And he wanted to bring somebody else into the disagreement?[Matthew D Selekman MSW, LCSW, Breif, Strength BasedCollaborative Therapy, Director, Partnersfor Collaborative Solutions]

    • 18:48

      SPEAKER 1: Yeah.

    • 18:48

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: Did he come around?And you guys were able to solve it together?

    • 18:53

      SPEAKER 1: Luke?

    • 18:54

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: Luke, yeah.

    • 18:55

      SPEAKER 1: Yeah, we were talking about it.And like I got where he was coming from.But I stilled talked to my friend about it.And she was just like, he can always do that.But all you can do is just tell him, like, you can trust meand all that.

    • 19:16

      SPEAKER 1 [continued]: So it just resolved itself.

    • 19:19

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: OK.Any other situations either one of youcan think of that might potentiallycrop up that would attempt to derail you and get youoff track?Anything coming up in the next months or something like that?Let's see, you're going in a month during spring break,

    • 19:41

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: you're going to go out to Arizona?

    • 19:42

      SPEAKER 1: Mm, hmm.

    • 19:43

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: And you've planned out everythingyou're going to do there.What's the game plan?What are you thinking about?

    • 19:51

      SPEAKER 1: Well, I have to go to my collegeand take a test, placement test.

    • 19:57

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: What subject?

    • 19:58

      SPEAKER 1: No, if I'm like in honors, or I guess--

    • 20:02

      SPEAKER 2: No, just depending on what English or--

    • 20:05

      SPEAKER 1: Just English?

    • 20:06

      SPEAKER 2: Or math, I think.

    • 20:07

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: You mean to get into a higher level?

    • 20:10

      SPEAKER 1: Yeah, just a placement test.And I'm going to be with family, because my babycousin was just born.I wasn't to be with him.

    • 20:19

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: Wonderful.

    • 20:23

      SPEAKER 1: Yeah, Luke's uncle and aunt live down there.So we're going to hang out.

    • 20:28

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: So Luke's going to go with you?

    • 20:29

      SPEAKER 1: Yeah.

    • 20:29

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: Oh, wonderful.Great.And are you planning to look at housingand see what the job market looks like down there?What do you know about so far?Have you done any research in terms of what kinds of jobsare out there?

    • 20:47

      SPEAKER 1: Well, my job title, I can eithergo into like a nursing home, or I can go to the person's house,like the patient's house, or be in a hospital.So I'm shooting for it to be in a hospital,because I don't want to be bored in either a nursing homeor at their house.

    • 21:10

      SPEAKER 1 [continued]: I like to be where everything's that.

    • 21:11

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: That's great move on your part,because hospitals are great places for learning.

    • 21:16

      SPEAKER 1: Yeah, experiences.

    • 21:18

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: And making good contacts in the future.So that's great.And what do you think he's going to do?Did you tell me that he works in a bank?

    • 21:28

      SPEAKER 1: No, he's looking into it, because his aunt down thereis a-- what is she?An account--

    • 21:36

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: Accountant.

    • 21:38

      SPEAKER 1: Yeah, accountant.

    • 21:40

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: So she might be able to help find a--

    • 21:42

      SPEAKER 1: Yeah.

    • 21:42

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: Great.Have you guys had an opportunity--I know last week we talked about you and Steve gettingtogether and talking about the move and budgeting and planningand stuff like that.But have the two of you had a conversation about how you wantyour parents to kind of help you out down there, because it's

    • 22:03

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: kind of tough moving out of state financially and cuttingit, and juggling school and a job and all that.I mean, have you guys had some heartto heart conversations about whatyou need from your parents?And what you guys at this point can help her out with?

    • 22:22

      SPEAKER 2: Just a touch, not a lot yet.I wanted to wait and see what we lookat when we go down there, as far as apartments.I don't know yet exactly how much out-of-pocket we'll haveto pay for her tuition because of financial aid,I don't think it's-- we did do the FAFSA.

    • 22:44

      SPEAKER 2 [continued]: But we haven't heard the final outcome yet.

    • 22:48

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: Well, it'll probablyhelp having a lot of kids--

    • 22:51

      SPEAKER 2: I only have two.I only have two.

    • 22:53

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: I thought you had a whole bunch of kids.

    • 22:56

      SPEAKER 2: No.

    • 22:56

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: I missed the boat there.OK, so, but, yeah, I mean, if they'regoing with your income-- I don't know who'sincome they're going with.If they're going with parents income,it kind of makes a difference.But, you know, the other thing is, grade-wise,

    • 23:16

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: you've done pretty well, right?So is there a possibility for some scholarship money?

    • 23:23

      SPEAKER 1: I haven't heard from the people or the organizationsthat I have applied for scholarships.Hopefully I get at least one from like the fiveI applied for.

    • 23:38

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: The other possibilityyou might want to look into is when you work in a hospital,sometimes you get what's called a stipend,that you get actually paid while you're doing that work.Like if you're doing this kind of like an internshipto get experience in a hospital, and sometimes you can actuallyget some almost like a salary that

    • 24:01

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: could help you with school, kind of like a scholarship.So it might be worthwhile investigating.

    • 24:08

      SPEAKER 1: OK, thank you.

    • 24:10

      SPEAKER 2: Thank you.

    • 24:11

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: So I think whatI'd like to do now at this point isI want to get at your ratings.Last week, I believe you were at an 8.That's what I thought.And you said you were at 8 plus.Where would you rate each other at this point?

    • 24:31

      SPEAKER 2: Probably still an 8, I think.

    • 24:34

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: All right.

    • 24:35

      SPEAKER 2: Maybe 8 plus for me now.

    • 24:36

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: An 8 plus for you.Have you made it up to a 9 minus or a 9?

    • 24:41

      SPEAKER 1: I think I made up to probably a 9 minus becauseof me and Luke, the whole situations, yeah.

    • 24:50

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: Have things been patched up?

    • 24:52

      SPEAKER 1: Mm, hmm.

    • 24:55

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: OK, all right, so what I'd like to do nowis meet with mom.And then we'll have our time.

    • 25:01

      SPEAKER 1: OK.

    • 25:01

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: OK.There were two things that you and I talked about last timeand that was having conversationswith Steve about, one, how you want to present to the kidsnow that's he's already spilled the beans, I guess,to Lydia about this split, like when the youngest

    • 25:23

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: one, whether she goes away to collegeor not, that he's planning to stay here with his ill mother,I guess, or elderly--

    • 25:32

      SPEAKER 2: Elderly mother.

    • 25:32

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: Elderly mother,and then you're planning to move to Texas or somethinglike that?

    • 25:36

      SPEAKER 2: Yes.

    • 25:37

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: Is that eminent?Or is that negotiable?Are you guys thinking about staying togetheror what's the deal with that?

    • 25:46

      SPEAKER 2: We'll see what happens.But I mean, one time he said, OK,for now, as long as my mother's alive, I want to stay here.And I said, whatever.And another time he said, you never know.I might go.He'll probably go.

    • 26:03

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: He'll go with you?

    • 26:04

      SPEAKER 2: Yes, yes.It's hard to say.

    • 26:07


    • 26:08

      SPEAKER 2: I feel good about going.So in my heart, if I feel good that I want to go,Emily-- my other daughter-- Emily wants to go with me.Lydia, of course, her plans are for Arizona.It just feels good, just going.I think in the long run, he'll probably come,because I'm not really worried about it.So I ask myself, OK, you're not worried about it.

    • 26:32

      SPEAKER 2 [continued]: So I think it's going to work out.

    • 26:34

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: OK, good.So it then it would be premature to say anything nowthat he mentioned this possibility to Lydia,it would be premature to really say anything.But I do feel that now that seed's been planted with her,we somehow have to not allow it to make it a worry for her.

    • 26:57

      SPEAKER 2: OK.

    • 26:57

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: Because I thinkshe is concerned about that.And somehow you maybe you can have a nice mother daughterconversation.

    • 27:04

      SPEAKER 2: OK.

    • 27:05

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: That I know that dad came to youand said this-- she told you that, right?

    • 27:11

      SPEAKER 2: No, she didn't.

    • 27:12

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: Oh, you found out from him.

    • 27:14

      SPEAKER 2: Right, he had already mentioned it before.And I thought he had mentioned itin the presence of the girls.

    • 27:19


    • 27:19

      SPEAKER 2: So they already knew.

    • 27:20

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: But only to her, not to both of them?

    • 27:22

      SPEAKER 2: It's more than once that he said it.

    • 27:25

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: Oh, OK, all right.Well, I think it's important that we help her nothave to take on that worry when she goes,because she's going to have more than enough on our plate.And whether you guys stay together or if you split up,we don't want that to kind of blow her out of the water.

    • 27:46

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: Because I've had the sense, I mean,at least how she's talked to me, that she'svery in tune with you guys.When you get along she's happy about that.When you don't get along, it stresses her out.And she worries.So I think if you could somehow impress upon herthat this is an adult matter.I know that dad shared this with you, but look,

    • 28:11

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: you don't need to worry about that.We're going to take care of business.We're on top of it.And what I want to do is just focus on youand having a successful future.

    • 28:22

      SPEAKER 2: Correct.

    • 28:23

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: So I think giving hera firm message like that can be really helpful.And then the other thing we're going to talk about is youand Steve getting together and talkingabout how far are you willing to goin terms of helping her financially and supporting herwhen she's out there.

    • 28:43

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: Have you been able to talk him at all?

    • 28:46

      SPEAKER 2: No, not this week.No.

    • 28:47

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: Because everyone's been sick.

    • 28:49

      SPEAKER 2: Right.

    • 28:49

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: Not a good time.

    • 28:51

      SPEAKER 2: It will come up.Yes, we do have to talk about that.Again, when we go to visit, I wantto see what our options are as far as apartments, whatthe cost is, all that good stuff,before we actually know what we'regoing to get ourselves into.

    • 29:08

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: Is he coming with you?

    • 29:09

      SPEAKER 2: No, he's not.Someone has to watch the dogs.

    • 29:13

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: That's right.How many dogs do you have?

    • 29:15

      SPEAKER 2: Two dogs.

    • 29:16

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: What kind of dogs?

    • 29:18

      SPEAKER 2: A chihuahua and a chow.

    • 29:19


    • 29:20

      SPEAKER 2: So small and big.

    • 29:22

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: And do they get along?

    • 29:23

      SPEAKER 2: They do.

    • 29:24

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: OK.So this could be sort of like a scouting trip for you,because then you can do some investigating, play detective--

    • 29:32

      SPEAKER 2: Exactly.

    • 29:33

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: Find out how much apartments go for.

    • 29:35

      SPEAKER 2: That's what we're going to do.

    • 29:37

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: How much everything's going to cost.So maybe the school will be able to give you more informationabout financial aid, scholarship possibilities, or whatever.

    • 29:46

      SPEAKER 2: That's in our plans.

    • 29:47

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: Great.But I have to say that I am so impressed with whata fine job that you've done with Lydia.I don't feel like I've said that enough.She's just such a fine young woman.And she's so mature and so responsible.I mean, there are a lot of kids thatare her age that still refuse to work

    • 30:10

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: and what their parents to pay for everythingand do everything for them.And she's very self sufficient.She's very strong.And I like her assertiveness here,where she kind of takes a stand with Steve.And I'm not going to let this guy tell me what to do,when I don't think it's right.And I think that's so healthy, because I've

    • 30:33

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: worked with a lot of young women that have a hard time assertingthemselves.And then what happens is they keep it all inside.And then they turn to cutting themselves, and eatingdisorders, and substance abuse as a wayto deal with all that built up stuff.But she's good at getting it out.And I think that's really helped.

    • 30:53

      SPEAKER 2: Yeah, she speaks her mind.

    • 30:55

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: And so you taught her that.

    • 30:59

      SPEAKER 2: She saw me speaking my mind.

    • 31:03

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: Well, it seems like you--and maybe it's genetics, your assertiveness,she inherited it.But it seems like she's really confident with standing upfor herself and stuff like that.

    • 31:16

      SPEAKER 2: Right.

    • 31:17

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: So what's your secret?What can I pass on to other moms about how you havebeen so successful with her?What do you think the recipe for success has been?

    • 31:27

      SPEAKER 2: Well, you just got to keep on top of them.I'm a little worried when she goes away,because I'm still the one that wakes her up in the morning.

    • 31:34

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: Oh, you're the alarm clock?

    • 31:35

      SPEAKER 2: Yes, and I'm like, doesn't your phonehave an alarm?I'm going to have to start stopping that,because she does have to start doing things more on her own.

    • 31:45


    • 31:47

      SPEAKER 2: I'm not sure what I did.She just watched maybe and learned.I try having conversations with them where what's rightand what's wrong, what they need to do.

    • 32:01

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: Well, you've done a great.Coming back to Steve, are there any questions or concernsthat you have about your relationship with himright now?

    • 32:14

      SPEAKER 2: No, I don't know.I think I can handle it-- but-- so far--so I can't think of anything new that's come up this week.We'll have that conversation again about moving.I don't want to bring it up too often.But he tends to bring it up more than I do.

    • 32:36

      SPEAKER 2 [continued]: I'm like, OK, well, he hasn't forgottenthat I said I want to move.It's been a few years already since I firstbrought up the subject.And it's nothing new.So my plans are still there.I told them I don't want to grow old in the cold.I want to be somewhere warm.

    • 32:56

      SPEAKER 2 [continued]: And I deserve that.I said, so I hope you want to come with us.The girls are already for it.I'm making my plans.And I said, I hope you will work your plans in with ours.So let's see what happens.But we still have conflict as any married couple would.

    • 33:17

      SPEAKER 2 [continued]: Two different personalities going to clash eventually.

    • 33:20

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: And conflict is not a bad thing.For some reason in our society it'sbeen like painted as this awful thing.But you need conflict in order to have change.You know, it's a sign that maybe weneed to do some tweaking here.Maybe we need to do something different.Maybe we need to move in a different directionor set new goals or whatever.

    • 33:40

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: But it's not a bad thing.And you know, the other thing is that people don't dig in and gohead to head with one another, if they don't love one another,and they don't care about one another.And I mean, it's about fighting for the relationship.Would you say that you and him are having more positive types

    • 34:01

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: together in terms of when you are together at home?Has it been more relaxed?Or more positive?

    • 34:11

      SPEAKER 2: I think so.I think this past year was good.It has been good.Hopefully it will continue.Yeah, I think so.

    • 34:21

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: Anything else?

    • 34:23

      SPEAKER 2: No, I think we're good.

    • 34:25

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: All right.So we'll take this home again.And keep track of other things that youdo, the A team, to stand up to that I'm right pattern.And any sneak attacks where you're not expecting,and I'm right pattern, I achieved a victoryover you or Lydia, we should put on there too as well.

    • 34:45

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: So we'll take that with later on then.

    • 34:48

      SPEAKER 2: OK.

    • 34:49

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: So I'm going to meetwith Libya for a little while.

    • 34:51

      SPEAKER 2: OK, sounds good.

    • 34:52

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: OK.I was bragging about you to your mom and saying like,I am so impressed with how mature you are.And I was looking into my imaginary crystalball over the week.And I saw you out in Arizona being very successful.

    • 35:06

      SPEAKER 1: Thank you.

    • 35:07

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: Doing well, pulling in good grades,and Luke getting along, growing up more, and working,and really making it a successful experience.And I have no doubt that that's going to happen.

    • 35:22

      SPEAKER 1: Thank you.

    • 35:23

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: My crystal ball's very accurate.So you must be really thrilled about that?

    • 35:30

      SPEAKER 1: Yes.

    • 35:31

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: And not have to deal with these winters.

    • 35:34

      SPEAKER 1: Oh, yeah, yeah, I'm goingto miss like a November feel, because November 26 ismy birthday.

    • 35:42

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: Oh, really.

    • 35:43

      SPEAKER 1: And like that's like whenthe cool air starts to come in.And yeah, I'm going to miss that.Oh, well.

    • 35:51

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: So Thanksgivingwill be out in Arizona this year?

    • 35:54

      SPEAKER 1: Yeah.

    • 35:55

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: Think everyone will come out?

    • 35:57

      SPEAKER 1: No, just with my cousins down there.

    • 36:01

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: Well, it sounded like youhandled the Luke situation OK.I mean, it could have been a lot worse.And you were sick, so it's kind of hard to fight a good fightwhen you're not feeling well.But it could have been much worse.But I'm still surprised that you didn't give yourselfa higher rating on that scale, because it sounds

    • 36:24

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: like, according to your mom, you guys are keepingthe lines of communication open and things are going well.

    • 36:29

      SPEAKER 1: Yeah, definitely, whenwas something happened to my truck yesterday,yeah, I had to tell her.You know, she didn't freak out or anything around methat, you know, that she didn't want to deal with it.It was just like it wasn't my fault.The truck has been having problems.It might be bad news later, when we go get a dia-- diagnostic.

    • 36:54

      SPEAKER 1 [continued]: I don't know.

    • 36:56

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: At the auto place?

    • 36:58

      SPEAKER 1: Yeah, I don't anything about that.

    • 36:59

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: When was the last time-- howold is the car or the truck?

    • 37:04

      SPEAKER 1: It's 2000-- I don't know--she got it in the year 2000.But we've had it over 10 years.

    • 37:11

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: Wow, and has the transmission everbeen replaced?

    • 37:15

      SPEAKER 1: Uh, uh.

    • 37:16

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: So maybe that's--

    • 37:18

      SPEAKER 1: Yeah.

    • 37:19

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: It's expensive.

    • 37:20

      SPEAKER 1: Yeah, like it's going to be in the thousands.And I'm not going to even think of doing that.

    • 37:27

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: Yeah, so are you thinkingthat maybe you sell it or?

    • 37:32

      SPEAKER 1: Sell parts probably, because the whole modelis just-- it's really old.It's going to be expensive.

    • 37:39

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: To maintain it.

    • 37:40

      SPEAKER 1: Yeah.

    • 37:41

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: So you're not going to bring that out west?

    • 37:43

      SPEAKER 1: No.

    • 37:44

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: Now, does Luke have a car?

    • 37:46

      SPEAKER 1: Yeah, he has a 2001 Mustang.

    • 37:48

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: And is that in good shape?

    • 37:50

      SPEAKER 1: Yeah, it's in good shape.But it's like things aren't as new.

    • 37:55

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: All right.Anything else going on that maybe that you'reconcerned about that we haven't talked about that you wantedto bring up today?

    • 38:12

      SPEAKER 1: Well, the whole me talking to my momabout college and financial aid, I guess, like from schooland from her.I already know I'm going to have a job.That's one.But we have to find a good fitting apartmentthat's in our budget, me and Luke's.

    • 38:38

      SPEAKER 1 [continued]: Yeah, that's going to be somethingthat we need to really target.

    • 38:40

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: Yeah, because you have all the utilitiesyou have to pay for too.But you know, when you go out there,you can scout it out and see what might be affordable.I thought of something else I didn't mention.That is a lot of schools have a work study kind of dealfor students, where you work on campusand it covers your tuition.

    • 39:02

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: So that's another possible--

    • 39:04

      SPEAKER 1: It is, I know.But I think it's like there's a trick to it.You don't get-- yeah, sure, you get your tuition paid for.But it's like you get these amount hours a week.And then you get paid like-- you know,not so beneficial to outside life, out of college.

    • 39:27

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: So I mean, a possibility,and some people do this, is to juggle both.That you get a regular job that pays more money.And then you do the work study to help with the tuition.Some people do that who are multitaskers.They can juggle a lot of different things.I don't know if you're like that.

    • 39:47

      SPEAKER 1: I mean, I do.I always have because of sports and school.So it might come naturally if I find time.

    • 39:55

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: Sure.Well, definitely out in Arizona, you'llbe able to play a lot of tennis.Now does Luke play tennis?

    • 40:04

      SPEAKER 1: Uh, uh.He tries to but--

    • 40:06

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: No competition?

    • 40:08

      SPEAKER 1: It's like baseball to him because he plays baseball,so he just--

    • 40:11

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: So the ball goes flying out of the court.Well, maybe you'll meet some people in some of your classesor whatever that like to play and can play.You have a cousin out there?Or Aunt?

    • 40:24

      SPEAKER 1: Yeah, they don't play sports.No.

    • 40:29

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: And are they on your mom's sideof the family or dad's?

    • 40:32

      SPEAKER 1: My mom's side, because my aunt,that's her daughter down there.So my aunt is my mom's sister.

    • 40:41


    • 40:43

      SPEAKER 1: So, yeah.

    • 40:44

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: How old is your cousin?

    • 40:46

      SPEAKER 1: The one that's down there?

    • 40:47


    • 40:48

      SPEAKER 1: She's like 42.

    • 40:49


    • 40:50

      SPEAKER 1: Yeah.

    • 40:53

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: I just wondered if she had a daughter.

    • 40:57

      SPEAKER 1: Yes, she just had a baby.

    • 40:58

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: Oh, just had a baby?

    • 41:00

      SPEAKER 1: Yeah, she couldn't have babies.So that's why like she had to hurry up and find a way to.So it was a real blessing that it happened.

    • 41:12

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: You know, I mentioned to youearlier about Santa Fe.Well, first of all, it's really beautiful, very artsy.And they have lots of Native American artistswho have turquoise, make things of turquoise and silver.But they also paint.And there's some galleries there and beautiful art.

    • 41:33

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: You would love it.So it could be a possible side trip with youand Luke sometime down there.But I think the key is once you get out there, getin the groove, get your feet on the ground in termsof putting everything in place.And then after you there for a while,then you can do all the side trips and stuff.

    • 41:53

      SPEAKER 1: Yeah.

    • 41:55

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: But it's a beautiful state.It gets really hot.

    • 41:58

      SPEAKER 1: It does.I don't know how my chihuahua will like that.I'm going to take him down there.He's used to the cold.He goes out there.He sniffs around.But then he can't move because he's so cold.And then my chow chow that I have, she loves it.

    • 42:19

      SPEAKER 1 [continued]: She'll stay out there for 20 minutes.And it's like below zero.

    • 42:22

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: And they have lots of fur on them, right?

    • 42:24

      SPEAKER 1: Oh Yeah.But I think he'll like it.

    • 42:28

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: Well, what theydo is they have these sprinklers everywhere.So when it's really hot outside, youcan get sprinkled before you going into the mall and allthat kind of stuff.But it seems like you and your momare getting along much better.And I think the key is to keep the lines of communicationopen.Because what happens is if you don't, then she gets

    • 42:51

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: stressed out.And then she's on your case.And then you get stressed out.And then this pattern gets in the middleand makes you guys lock horns with one another.So I think keep doing that.And know that as you get closer to this big move,that mom is-- it's going to be a challenge for mom

    • 43:13

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: because you guys are so tight.And yeah, she's got to get used to not having you in the nest,because you're going to be flapping your wingsand out on your own soon.But I think cherish and enjoy these months with your mom.And do some nice things together.

    • 43:35

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: You know, try and make the most of what you haveright now while you're here.I think that's important.OK, well, you know, I think it's amazing that-- I don't if itwas the flu bug or whatever was gettingthe best of this whole family. [Matthew D Selekman, MSW, LCSW,Breif, Strength Based CollaborativeTherapy, Director, Partners for Collaborative Solutions]And yet you guys were still on your toes.You still had a 90% in charge of the I'm right pattern.

    • 44:01

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: You also kept the lines of communication open, whichyour mom really appreciates.

    • 44:07

      SPEAKER 2: Yes.

    • 44:09

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: You guys have been working really hard.And like I said last week, you know,you have the land speed record in termsof shooting up to those high 8s and 9 minusesin such a short amount of time.It's amazing.And I'd love to bring you guys in as guest consultants whenI work with another family just like you.

    • 44:30

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: And you can share with them all your expertiseand wisdom about how to work together as an A team.

    • 44:37

      SPEAKER 2: Yes.

    • 44:39

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: And I have no doubtthat you guys will continue to stay tight as a team.And we have one more session next week.And I'd like you to take this with and keeptrack of other things that you do that help you get along

    • 45:00

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: and not fall prey to the I'm right pattern.But at the same time, if there's a sneak attack,I want to write down whatever that might have been.And I guess to keep with tradition here,I'm going to hand you my imaginary crystal ball.I'd like you to look into that crystal ball

    • 45:22

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: and describe for me what you're going to make happen overthe next week.

    • 45:27

      SPEAKER 1: OK-- I guess talk to herabout the financial problems thatmight come in the future with college and apartmentsthat we're looking at.

    • 45:49

      SPEAKER 1 [continued]: Because right now, she has like a clouded mind.I can see it.She's being doubtful.And I'm just like, no, like, it's OK.So I got to talk to her about that.And probably have a meeting with Luke also.That'll clear up some cloudiness.

    • 46:11

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: OK, all right.Hand that crystal ball to mom.So what do you see you're making yourself do overthe next week that's going further your great effortsand climb up towards that nine.

    • 46:28

      SPEAKER 2: Well, like Lydia said,we're going to talk it over.But again, we can talk it over, make a list.I like to make a lists of things to come--the bills, what we're going to have to be obligated to,what to expect.

    • 46:48

      SPEAKER 2 [continued]: So we could do that.And again, but I'll be waiting for when we actuallygo to Arizona to actually see some figures asfar as apartments, wait to talk to the college to see whatthe expense there's going to be.But over the next week just try to improve communication.

    • 47:09

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: And how about with Steve?

    • 47:11

      SPEAKER 2: The same.

    • 47:11

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: It's the same.Keep the communications positive.

    • 47:15

      SPEAKER 2: Right.

    • 47:17

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: One of the thingsI forgot to mention earlier-- I can relieve you of that.Put that right there.One of things I forgot to mention earlieris I think this A team should have a celebrationparty of some sort.And maybe you guys can over the next week--is there a favorite restaurant that you like?

    • 47:41

      SPEAKER 1: I told Dad I want to go to Texas Roadhouse.

    • 47:44

      SPEAKER 2: Oh, OK.

    • 47:45

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: Maybe the two of you,the women, the women A team here,could have an outing, just the two of you,and have a nice dinner together.And maybe plan that time-- you can have a few laughsand enjoy each other's company.And maybe you can also use that timeto talk a little bit about Arizona if you wish.But it's up to what you want to talk about.

    • 48:07

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: But I think you should celebrate your great teamship hereand how special your relationship is.

    • 48:16

      SPEAKER 2: OK.

    • 48:17

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: All right, so on that note,I look forward to hearing what further progress you made.And maybe we could talk about next week burying this pattern.We can have some ritual in your backyard,like make a little whole and like take this chartand crumble it up.

    • 48:34

      SPEAKER 2: Burn it.

    • 48:36

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: But anyways, yeah,so I look forward to hearing how we'repushing up towards that 10 and any other surprisesalong the way.

    • 48:47

      SPEAKER 2: OK.

    • 48:47

      SPEAKER 1: OK.

    • 48:48

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: All right, so we'll see you next week[Brief, Strengths Based, Collaborative Therapy,A Discusccion With Shannon B Dermer, PhD, Session 4]

    • 49:05

      SHANNON DERMER: This is the fourth sessionwith Lydia and Raquel.And so next week is the last session.[Shannon B Dermer, PhD, Chair, Division of Psychologyand Counseling, Governors State University]And as we've been talking about in other videosthat you are-- well, remind the viewers what your approach is.

    • 49:21

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: Well, I call it collaborativestrength-based family therapy.And it brings together change-based models.I like to call solution focused change-basebecause it's about doing things differently,which leads to new ways of looking at things oftentimes.I mean, sometimes there's a shiftin the viewing, then the doing changes, but MRI, brief,

    • 49:45

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: strategic therapy.And then the collaborative part Iwould call narrative, collaborative language systemstherapy-- you know, Harlene Anderson, Harry Goolishian.And I've also been inspired by the workof Lynn Hoffman and other postmodern systemic thinkers.

    • 50:03

      SHANNON DERMER: And some of those approachesare a little bit more structured,like MRI who say you're supposed to have 10 sessionsand track sequences and things like that.And then you Harlene's stuff where it'smore just about conversations.So how do you-- well, I've noticed some of the things

    • 50:25

      SHANNON DERMER [continued]: that you've been doing.I definitely can see narrative obviouslywith the I'm right pattern.And so I wanted to ask you a couple things about that,because I think sometimes people with externalizingthe problem worry that people aren'tgoing to take responsibility.Or with the I'm right one, and you kind of talked a little bit

    • 50:45

      SHANNON DERMER [continued]: about it today, how do you help them distinguishbetween the I'm right pattern and when they really doneed to stand up for something?How do you help them to distinguishthat when it's the pattern talkingand when it's just good sense talking?

    • 50:58

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: I think Lydia gavea nice example where she asserts yourself with Lukeand kind of separates that from the I'm right pattern.And she's been able to talk about timeswhere she got kind of lead footed and lockedinto her position.And both of them, I think, have becomemuch more mindful and flexible.

    • 51:20

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: When tension brews, they're able to kind of stay on their toesand do a lot of self talk to prevent clashes.And that's the beauty of these two women.They work so hard.And they take what we talk about in here and put it to use.

    • 51:41

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: And they're always thinking about it.And it's helping them steer clear of negative interactions.And people always say-- not always,but sometimes one of the criticisms of externalization,the problem is aren't you abdicating

    • 52:02

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: the client's responsibility for their behavior.But no, they have a choice.They can continue to allow the behavior or the patternto get the best of them.Or they could take a stand against it and take charge.And clearly these two have taken charge--I mean, 90% in charge of that pattern.And you know, I have no doubt that they'll continue

    • 52:25

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: to do more of what's working.And maybe there'll be some new surprises as well.

    • 52:31

      SHANNON DERMER: So that's a good point you bring up about eventhough your externalizing the problem, it is about choices--when you listen to that pattern, the I'm right,when that's whispering in your ear, when you listen to it,when you don't, how you're able to overcome it, when you can't.So there's still a lot of responsibility and choice.But it's externalizing the problemto show its effect on everybody.

    • 52:53

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: Yeah, I mean, that'swhat I love about the model, narrative therapy,that it's a non-blame approach, that everyoneis being victimized by it-- the identified client, the parents,other involved helping professionalsfrom larger systems.This is why if I knew that Lydia hadmaybe conflict with a particular teacher at school,

    • 53:15

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: we might use the same kind of ritual at school,and then collaborating with that teacher.And so that the viewing will change.That it's not Lydia has an attitude problem.But Lydia and the teacher and maybe some of the studentsare being victimized by the I'm right pattern.

    • 53:33

      SHANNON DERMER: Oh, that's nice.Yeah, so that's nice.I hadn't thought about that.So it is a pattern a lot of struggle with.

    • 53:38

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: That's right.

    • 53:39

      SHANNON DERMER: Not me.No, it is a pattern a lot of us struggle with.And it doesn't mean it's there all the time.But it can victimize, as you said,people, and sometimes even peoplethat we know we're supposed to listen to.Sometimes they're not coming from a better place.Sometimes the I'm right pattern has gotten them too.So you can use it to not only understand themselvesand their family, but sometimes other people,

    • 54:01

      SHANNON DERMER [continued]: and how other people get victimized by that patternalso.

    • 54:04

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: You know, the one thing that I didn't do,which would have been interesting to hear aboutis if Raquel and her mom got victimizedby this I'm right pattern or maybe her father.And that it's intergenerational on another level,because I've seen that too with the parentsit keep falling prey to yelling at their kids.

    • 54:26

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: And when you ask did yelling get the best of youand your relationship with your parents, oftentimes they say,yeah.And what was that like for you?I didn't like it.Are we going to allow this patternto wreak havoc in your relationshipwith your daughter?Or are we going to take a stand against itand rewrite history here?And once you get that kind of positive emotional reaction,which there's been some of that with them too, and the fact

    • 54:49

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: that they're working hard on this--

    • 54:51

      SHANNON DERMER: They are.They are.In fact, the viewers wouldn't have been able to see this,but it was funny because you had your chart herewith the I'm right pattern on thereand how they're dealing with it and all that.And we forgot to remind them to take it.And they actually came back and said, hey, give us our chart.That they're really getting into-- it's not

    • 55:12

      SHANNON DERMER [continued]: something that's just like, here, do this.They came back.And it's like you didn't give that-- weneed that, so we can do our homework this week, which is,of course, most counselors and therapists loveto see that when their clients are reminding them that, hey,we need to do this.So it's nice-- it seems to be something that is helping them,

    • 55:33

      SHANNON DERMER [continued]: that they have some insight on that they can discuss,but very non-threatening to them.

    • 55:39

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: And you know, and we've talked about thisbefore, a pure solution focused therapistwould call this problem talk.Why you even making a big production about this?This is a problem.But the bottom line is if you don't cover the back door,things can crop up.And if they're ill equipped to deal with it,and they haven't worked on strategizing

    • 56:01

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: on when it does crop up what to do concretely,it could lead them to feeling like they're backto square one.And that's why I think it's so important,which I did a lot today of covering the back door,talking about worst case scenarios,and making sure that they have in their mind steps

    • 56:21

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: that they can take in case things crop up.

    • 56:24

      SHANNON DERMER: Yeah, and I thinkone of the ways that is really congruent with solutionsfocus though, I think it's reallyhelped them to take ownership for someof the changes that happened.And we always want clients not to just be like, oh, yeah,I did that.You want them to take ownership for the hard workthat they did, even though it might nothave felt like hard work to them at the time.Because I mean, that's hard work getting over

    • 56:46

      SHANNON DERMER [continued]: the I'm right pattern, especially for a parent whosechild is about to go away.

    • 56:52

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: And you know, Ithink what's the beauty with these twois that it's really not hard work for the therapist.It takes us back to after the-- I thinkit was the first session when I said, the way that they'reworking already to make positive changes even before we started

    • 57:12

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: the counseling, reminds me of Michele Weiner-Davis'ssign in her office, "Please solve your problems before youcome in here, so I can help you more."It feels like I'm in the backseat of a car.And they're doing the driving.And really it's effortless for themto share their news of the difference.

    • 57:34

      SHANNON DERMER: Yeah, and I like that analogy,because just like someone sitting in the backseat.Once in awhile you might say, oh,watch out the turns coming up here,careful there's a cop sitting over there,but really they're driving and they're in charge.But you can still help out a little bit.[Shannon B Dermer, PhD, Chair, Division of Psychologyand Counseling, Governors State University]So talk to me a little bit more about the influenceof, you said, collaborative language systems, right?

    • 57:55

      SHANNON DERMER [continued]: Talk to me about how that influences your work.

    • 57:58

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: Well, many years ago, Ibrought Harry Goolishian and Harlene Anderson to Chicago.And there was just 12 of us.It was one of the best trainings I've ever had.And I brought in a family with four generationsof schizophrenia.

    • 58:11

      SHANNON DERMER: Oh, wow.

    • 58:12

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: And the identified clientwas a 19-year-old who had a paranoid breakand nearly killed his father and was in the hospital.And then he got out.And the family would talk about him, but not with him.So it was like he was one with the wall.And so we changed that interaction.And we even got him out of bed and got him to a job bagging

    • 58:34

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: at a grocery store.But these were changes that didn't make a differenceto the family members.They still saw him as sick and deviant and crazyand we got to watch him and all this stuff.And so I brought this family in for a consultationwith Harry Goolishian.And Harry Goolishian was sort of like a grandfatheryou always wanted to have.And you're like sitting by the fireplace with grandfather.

    • 58:54

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: It was warm.Just he embraced you no matter whereyou came from theoretically.And just create this really, almostlike a loving, safe environment for peopleto take big time risks and talk about things that they neversaid before.And in this session, one consultation,the 19-year-old became like unpsychotic-like

    • 59:18

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: and confronted his father about not goingto high school graduation.And that was right near the time that he had his first break.So there was clearly that critical life event playeda role in his difficulties.But the fact that he could assert himselfin a very healthy way like that was amazing.And it may be a believer of honoring the client's story

    • 59:41

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: and not being a narrative editor and giving peopleroom in sessions, not only to talk about what's going well,but any concerns they might have outside of our target goalareas or questions that they've been ponderingthat are meaningful to them.And so to try and have a balanced interview where

    • 01:00:02

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: you amplify and consolidate the good stuff,but also make room to attend to the not yet side.

    • 01:00:09

      SHANNON DERMER: Oh, the non yet side.Now, I don't mean to throw you like a curve ball or anything--

    • 01:00:13

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: All right, I'm ready.

    • 01:00:15

      SHANNON DERMER: We were just talking about sportsbefore we started talking-- a little March Madnessin our theory talk here.How do you see that then as similar or differentfrom person centered?

    • 01:00:29

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: You mean like Carl Rogers?

    • 01:00:31

      SHANNON DERMER: Yeah, I mean, he made roomfor lots of different conversationswithout judgement.You know, he made space.I mean, I see those as a little bit different, collaborativelanguage systems and person centered.But how do you-- like what was different thatgave that a different edge?

    • 01:00:48

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: I think the difference wasthat Harry was not paraphrasing what people were saying to showthem that he heard them.But he would indicate that he would validate themin other ways, through head nods.

    • 01:01:09

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: One of things that I loved about himwas that he would operate from a position of curiosity.There's was this underlying curiosityto want to know more about the story and the chaptersof the story.And he would ask these open ended questions in such a waythat there would be more information coming out.

    • 01:01:30

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: And it's through the telling and retelling for the clientstheir story, which can lead to new meaning, whichin turn leads to new ways of interacting and sometimesbreakthroughs with some very difficult cases.And Harry and Harlene had decades of experience workingwith what I call bottom of the barrel families,

    • 01:01:51

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: families that have been recycled through the mental healthsystem forever.And by holding them up as the experts--and this is the parallel the solution focusedthat the clients are the experts-- he would askquestions like, you've seen many therapists before,what did they overlook?What did they miss with your situation that's

    • 01:02:11

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: important for me to know?And then they would be talking about thingsthat the therapists missed that they wanted to work onin their therapy together.So I think there's a difference there.I think the types of questions asked.It wasn't just being present.But it was also being curious and kind of-- I

    • 01:02:35

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: don't want to say unpeeling the onion in a psychodynamic way.But operating from a position of not knowing versusa position of pre-knowing.You know, in solution focused, we make the assumptionthat no problem happens all the time.They're always exceptions.And you go into it-- sometimes you'll

    • 01:02:56

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: ask clients those kind of question,solution focused questions, and you'llget a yes or a no response, like an either or response.But the kinds of questions that Goolishian, Tom Anderson--let me think-- that Lynn Hoffman askare questions that are from this position of uncertainty

    • 01:03:21

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: and knowing that there's more to know.That it's beyond yes or no, or either or.But there's more to it.

    • 01:03:30

      SHANNON DERMER: Right, and that there'ssome kind of healing process, not just by like saying whatyou think or feel, but by storing itand then restoring it, and having someonebeing curious about how that can be expandedor where it goes, which is different maybe than personcentered, where it's about validating you and you feelingnot judged.

    • 01:03:51

      SHANNON DERMER [continued]: But it's not about like that these new things can come outthrough conversations where you're exploringand that there's authentic, pure curiosity to help you continueto explore those things.

    • 01:04:03

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: Yeah, I mean, Ithink I would liken the Rogers approach to beingmore of a first order change.I mean, yes, he had plenty of good resultswith clients, because of the person of who he is, I think.But I would look at what Goolishian and Anderson

    • 01:04:23

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: and some of these others that I mentioneddo, produce second order changes through new meaning.And when you have new meaning that can lead to new doingand people getting along better or talking about thingsthat they never talked about before because it feels safe.And this is kind of like a sacred sanctuary, where

    • 01:04:45

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: I can take risks.And it could be a first time experiencefor people to open up about secrets and things like that.Like in this family, this consultationwith Goolishian, what was really interestingwas I didn't know that the mother of all these kidsused to walk the daughter, who is nowlike 26, through the streets of Chicago,

    • 01:05:08

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: when she was like seven or eight years old, searching for JesusChrist.So she had problems with schizophrenia.And she abandoned the family.I didn't know this stuff.And it came out in the session that the dad had sexuallyabuse her.I mean all these things because Harry made it safe for peopleto talk about things that were really meaningful to them.

    • 01:05:28

      SHANNON DERMER: Right, so it's notthat-- I mean, we know that therecan be certain events that trigger psychosisor schizophrenia.But you know it's there.Obviously, it was intergenerationalin this family.But certainly, there are things that you can make itwhere it might enhance some of the problems thatare associated for a particular person with schizophrenia

    • 01:05:49

      SHANNON DERMER [continued]: when you're told like you can't talk about certain things,or you shouldn't talk about certain thing.

    • 01:05:55

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: Right, which further-- what do we say--exacerbates the problem, right.

    • 01:06:01

      SHANNON DERMER: I have to say to bring it backto Raquel and Lydia-- and thank you for sharing that story,it was fascinating-- that to bring it back to them,you certainly have made it very safe for themto just kind of what looks easy to them,but it's for them to talk, which is notnecessarily easy for a mom and daughterto sit here feeling comfortable talking

    • 01:06:22

      SHANNON DERMER [continued]: about their relationship, their relationship with husband,with boyfriend, with sister, their plans for the future.You do make it-- you are very curious.And you do make it very comfortable for themto just talk, which is harder than it seems,because most people come into these things a little bitscared, scared of being judged, scared that someone will thinkthere's something wrong with them, they're a bad parent,

    • 01:06:44

      SHANNON DERMER [continued]: they're a bad kid.

    • 01:06:45

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: We did an interesting qualitative studywith consultation I had done many years ago up in Calgary,actually, with the kid that had been abusing some marijuanaand alcohol.And the ex-husband, mom's ex, the father of this daughter,

    • 01:07:06

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: was an alcoholic.And what was really interesting wasthat she was-- they were both interviewedafter the consultation about what their experience was like.And the daughter said that it waslike having a conversation with somebody on a train or a bus,with somebody that you felt comfortable with.It was very relaxed.

    • 01:07:27

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: And that's what she thinks consulting should be.

    • 01:07:29

      SHANNON DERMER: Yeah, like the strangerin the plane phenomena.You can say something without beingworried about being judged.Yeah, well, that's nice.Yeah.I definitely think Lydia and Raquel have that.The only time I really see Raquel shy awaya little bit-- I know we're running out of timehere-- is that when you ask her about her husband,

    • 01:07:50

      SHANNON DERMER [continued]: like there doesn't really seem to be a contract thereto work on that very much.She'll talk about it a little bit.But then it can only go so far.

    • 01:07:58

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: My guess is that shedoesn't want to rock the boat with him and push too hard.But I think she herself, she has donea masterful job of responding to him differently.And so if there is some tension that is a brewing,

    • 01:08:19

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN [continued]: they don't seem to get into the old, big time clashes.I mean, I think she feels more in control.And that's empowering for her.And you know, we look at this culturally,the machismo thing, the man, you know, usually calls the shots.But she's also an assertive woman.

    • 01:08:38

      SHANNON DERMER: She is.

    • 01:08:39

      MATTHEW SELEKMAN: And I think this one, Lydia,has inherited those genes.

    • 01:08:44

      SHANNON DERMER: But she seems to be startingto try to take the best out of that assertivenessor of being a strong person without letting being strongbeat up her relationship.So I think that's great that you're helpingher stay along that path.So I look forward to then next and last sessionto see how you wrap up with them.

    • 01:09:05


Brief, Strengths-Based, Collaborative Therapy: Session 4

View Segments Segment :


Over the course of five counseling sessions, Matthew Selekman works with Raquel and Lydia, a mother–daughter duo who have come to therapy to discuss some bumps in the road as the family is transitioning through a typical developmental stage—Lydia moving from the end of adolescence and into young adulthood, which includes attending community college and moving in with her boyfriend. Selekman works with the mother and daughter to see what successes they have already had and how they will continue to capitalize on their strengths into the future. They work on avoiding the “I’m right, you’re wrong” pattern and de-escalating typical blowups in the family. Selekman works with the mother and daughter together in the first session. In subsequent sessions, he begins with both clients together for the first 20 minutes and then works individually with each person for the last part of the session. Matthew Selekman is a licensed clinical social worker and founder and director of Partners for Collaborative Solutions, based in Chicago. He is the author of numerous family therapy articles and seven professional books. His eighth book, Working With High-Risk Adolescents: An Individualized Family Therapy Approach, is due out in December 2015. He works with clients in his private practice from a brief, collaborative, postmodern strengths-based perspective. He believes that all clients have the strengths, resources, and self-healing capacities to change and are the experts with their own life situations. His expertise as a therapist is in tapping his clients’ strengths to coconstruct solutions together. Complete Counseling: From First to Last Session takes the viewer through five sessions with the same client. Viewers will witness how clients change from session to session, how the approach to treatment changes over time, and how various therapeutic interventions are applied in different situations.

Brief, Strengths-Based, Collaborative Therapy: Session 4

Over the course of five counseling sessions, Matthew Selekman works with Raquel and Lydia, a mother–daughter duo who have come to therapy to discuss some bumps in the road as the family is transitioning through a typical developmental stage—Lydia moving from the end of adolescence and into young adulthood, which includes attending community college and moving in with her boyfriend. Selekman works with the mother and daughter to see what successes they have already had and how they will continue to capitalize on their strengths into the future. They work on avoiding the “I’m right, you’re wrong” pattern and de-escalating typical blowups in the family. Selekman works with the mother and daughter together in the first session. In subsequent sessions, he begins with both clients together for the first 20 minutes and then works individually with each person for the last part of the session. Matthew Selekman is a licensed clinical social worker and founder and director of Partners for Collaborative Solutions, based in Chicago. He is the author of numerous family therapy articles and seven professional books. His eighth book, Working With High-Risk Adolescents: An Individualized Family Therapy Approach, is due out in December 2015. He works with clients in his private practice from a brief, collaborative, postmodern strengths-based perspective. He believes that all clients have the strengths, resources, and self-healing capacities to change and are the experts with their own life situations. His expertise as a therapist is in tapping his clients’ strengths to coconstruct solutions together. Complete Counseling: From First to Last Session takes the viewer through five sessions with the same client. Viewers will witness how clients change from session to session, how the approach to treatment changes over time, and how various therapeutic interventions are applied in different situations.

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