An Interview with Ronald Clarke

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    • 00:00

      [MUSIC PLAYING]The Oral History of Criminology Project,in conjunction with the American Society of Criminology,is pleased to present an interview with Ron Clark.

    • 00:21

      We're joining Ronald Clark here on campus of Rutgers Universityin Newark, New Jersey.Just brief introduction to Dr. Ronald Clark's life and career,some of the seminal elements he'scontributed to the scholarship over the courseof the duration of his career.Began his undergraduate career at the University of Bristol

    • 00:42

      in the United Kingdom.And from there, he pursued an MA at the Universe of London,earning that in 1965 and a PhD in 1968,both of those in psychology.From 1964 to 1968 he was research officer KingswoodTraining Schools for Delinquent Boys.

    • 01:03

      From 1968 to 1984, he held forth at the homeoffice, the research and planning unitfrom 1984 to 1987.1984, actually, marked the year that you came to the UnitedStates from the United Kingdom.From '84 to '87 he was professor of criminal justiceat Temple University.

    • 01:24

      '87 to '98, dean and distinguished professorat the School of Criminal Justicehere at Rutgers University.And in 1998 he was named university professor, a ratherdistinguished title there.He's also held a number of visiting positionsof the course of his career.He served as visiting professor at the State University

    • 01:45

      of New York at Albany at their famous schoolof criminal justice.He's also a visiting professor at the Jill Dando Institutefor Crime Science at the University College, London.He's had several visiting fellowshipsas well, the first of which was at the national police researchunity.

    • 02:07

      You'll have to help you with the pronunciationhere-- Adelaide, Australia.

    • 02:11

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Adelaide, yes.

    • 02:13

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Also visiting fellowat the Department of Justice Administrationat Griffith University in Brisbane, Australia.Visiting fellowship, National Instituteof Justice in Washington DC, and lastly,the week National Police Academy in Oslo, Norway.And very much an international cast to the thingsthat you've done over the course of your career.

    • 02:35

      BRENDAN DOOLEY [continued]: You've presented dozens and dozens of presentationsthroughout your career the world over.Your vita marks over 250 publications--books, monograph, articles, chapters, edited volumes.Very prolific author, and a wide varietyof contexts and milieus.

    • 02:58

      BRENDAN DOOLEY [continued]: Given numerous presentations and lectures as wellto governmental bodies and professional organizationsof all types.You also maintain-- have maintainednumerous consultancies with a numberof governmental agencies, international organizationsagencies, NGOs, as well as a number of other tradeorganizations as well.You've been instrumental in designing and promoting

    • 03:20

      BRENDAN DOOLEY [continued]: the British Crime Survey.I think it's oftentimes an understatedaspect of what you've contributedover the course of your career.Co-founder of the World Criminal Justice Library Network.Also marked as the co-organizer of the annual seminarsin environmental criminology and crime analysis since 1992.

    • 03:44

      BRENDAN DOOLEY [continued]: He's associate director of the Centerfor Problem-Oriented Policing.We encourage folks to check out any number of the publicationsthat populate POP Center.P-O-P-C-E-N-T-E-R.org, enormously helpful.There you can find a number of guides for policingand those are all freely available documents.

    • 04:06

      BRENDAN DOOLEY [continued]: He's founder and series editor for crime prevention studies,which he tells me this year marks the 28th volume to date.A number of seminal pieces he's offeredover the course of his career.We'll start in 1976, which is arguablyone of the first statements outlining

    • 04:28

      BRENDAN DOOLEY [continued]: what he's most known for, situational crime prevention.It's a term that you'll be hearingthroughout the interview.A document "Crime is Opportunity"is a report on the home office.And the first chapter really outlinesa lot of important items that are salient through his career.That was done with a number of co-authors.

    • 04:49

      BRENDAN DOOLEY [continued]: In 1980, Designing out crime, another home office productionthere with Mayhew.1986, produced a book called The Reasoning Criminal, whichis a compilation, I believe, from-- thereare a number of authors that came and presented papers,and that was all complied in an edited volume.

    • 05:10

      BRENDAN DOOLEY [continued]: Sort of a must-read for those of yougraduate students out there.Derek Cornish a common co-author throughout his career,edited that in 1986 which, actually, the title spawneda recent festschrift to Dr. Clarke's career

    • 05:34

      BRENDAN DOOLEY [continued]: called The Reasoning Criminologist.That was issued in 2012.That helped inform some of the content of this interview.Another book, 1989, Suicide-- Closing the Exitswith David Lester.That's been republished in 2013.Another book, Routine Activities and Rational Choice with Marcus

    • 05:54

      BRENDAN DOOLEY [continued]: Felson, edited that in 1993.Situational Crime Prevention-- Successful Case Studiesis now in the second edition, originally published in 1993.Superhighway Robbery in 2003 dealtwith ecommerce, co-authored with Graeme Newman of SUNY Albany.Crime Analysis for Problem Solvers in 60 Small

    • 06:16

      BRENDAN DOOLEY [continued]: Steps-- 2005, with John Eck, another book.In 2006, offered a book called Outsmarting Terrorists GraemeNewman as well.He's had numerous appearances in the Crime and Justice,an annual review of research put outby the University of Chicago Press,detailing all manner of ins and outs

    • 06:37

      BRENDAN DOOLEY [continued]: with situation crime prevention.In 1978, he was named fellow for the British PsychologicalSociety.And most recently, he's earned one of the top prizes, if notthe top prize, in all of criminology, the StockholmPrize, which has prompted this particular occasion.

    • 06:57

      BRENDAN DOOLEY [continued]: Perhaps is the term that he's most associated with here,situational crime prevention.Here we'll allow an opportunity at some pointto outline that in somewhat greater detail.But before we get to Rob Clark, the criminologist, the scholar,maybe we ought to start in the very beginning here,from your beginnings.

    • 07:19

      BRENDAN DOOLEY [continued]: Your birth in Africa and all the thingsthat may have informed some of the future developmentshere in terms of your intellectual thought process.

    • 07:30

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Yes, well I was born in Tanzania,now it's called.It used to be Tanganyika.My father was a colonial servant whowas an engineer, road builder.My mother was the daughter of a chairman missionary.

    • 07:53

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: Tanganyika used to belong to Germany,and after the First World War, itbecame a British protectorate.And they met and married in Tanganyika,and I lived there till I was about 11.And then my mother brought our children back to England

    • 08:15

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: to go to school, a proper school.

    • 08:18

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: [CHUCKLES] So what kinds of things havehappened in your earlier life there that--would you draw any connection between things that--

    • 08:28

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Well, I've become very interestedrecently in wildlife crimes.

    • 08:33

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: OK.

    • 08:34

      RONALD V. CLARKE: And obviously I saw a great deal of wildlifewhen I was in Tanganyika.My father had to drive around lookingat the road construction and sometimes took me.It was make two week's trip.And we saw all manner of animals, elephants,and all the rest of it.

    • 08:53

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: So what really drew you to psychology?

    • 08:56

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Oh, well, it's a bit of a long story.But in Britain, when I was doing my high school--they called it grammar school there.

    • 09:08

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Yeah.

    • 09:09

      RONALD V. CLARKE: You had to make a choice between artsand science.

    • 09:14

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Yeah.

    • 09:15

      RONALD V. CLARKE: And I rather foolishly took arts.

    • 09:17

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: [CHUCKLES]

    • 09:19

      RONALD V. CLARKE: And I realized when I got to about 16 or 17I really didn't want to do this any more.I was doing history and English and Latin.And I thought I'd like to do somethinga bit more scientific.

    • 09:36

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: All right.

    • 09:37

      RONALD V. CLARKE: And at that time,you could actually do a psychology degreewith an arts background in certain universitiesin Britain.So that was really the main reason I got into psychology.

    • 09:50

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: OK.

    • 09:51

      RONALD V. CLARKE: And I'm glad I did.It's very interesting.

    • 09:54

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Now what accountsfor the jump from psychology to more criminal justice-oriented.How does one earn a PhD in psychologyand end up in a delinquent home for boys?

    • 10:03

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Yes.Well, again, this is an unusual story for American ears.But when I finished my degree in psychology-- psychologyand philosophy, actually, at Bristol University,I got admitted to a clinical psychologydegree at London University, just by chance, really.

    • 10:27

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: There's not very much post-graduate workthat I could have got into.And I did a clinical degree.And while I was doing that, I hadto do a project, a research project, whichI enjoyed doing so much that I decidedthat this is much more interesting than being

    • 10:50

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: a clinician.And I happened to one psychiatristat the Institute of Psychiatry where I was training in London.He told me about a job that was coming up at his trainingschools in the West of England.And I applied for the job, but I withdrew my application

    • 11:15

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: because I really wasn't sure I wanted to do this.But anyway, the time came I had to get a job,so I wrote back to them and said is that job still open?And they said yes, yes yes.

    • 11:26

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: [LAUGHS]

    • 11:27

      RONALD V. CLARKE: They hadn't had any other applicants.So I took that job.And I did various studies there, includingwork on absconding or escaping from group schools.And as I had a London master's degree,I could use the work I did for that for a PhD.

    • 11:52

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: So my PhD was unsupervised.I just had to deliver a dissertation at some point.This is a special arrangement that London Universityhad for its master's students.And I just, after four years, I said [INAUDIBLE]

    • 12:12

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: to examine as one of whom [INAUDIBLE] quite well knownin our field.So I was employed, did interesting work,and got a PhD out of it.

    • 12:27

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: [CHUCKLES] That's a nice succession there.

    • 12:29

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Yeah.

    • 12:30

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Now my understandingfrom the outside looking in-- I'm not a psychologist,I haven't trained in psychology--is that psychology is very much of the opinionthat we can change people's behavior.There are a number of different approachesthere that I suppose a clinician can introduceinto one's thinking patterns there that will ultimatelyresult in some adaptations on the part of the recipients,

    • 12:53

      BRENDAN DOOLEY [continued]: let's just say.Was there a connection between that,and was there an attempt at that that maybefailed that produced a new thinking for you?

    • 13:04

      RONALD V. CLARKE: For me, that's true.I mean as a clinician, you are trained to either do therapy.I did behavior therapy.I trained in Hans Eysenck's departmentat the Institute of Psychiatry.So I did behavior therapy, and that does producebehavioral change [INAUDIBLE].

    • 13:25

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Did you have any encounters with Hans?

    • 13:27

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Yes.I [INAUDIBLE].

    • 13:31

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Yeah.[LAUGHS]

    • 13:32

      RONALD V. CLARKE: He was a larger than lifecharacter, or course.

    • 13:35

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Yeah

    • 13:36

      RONALD V. CLARKE: And I think veryunjustly treated by history.

    • 13:39

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Yes

    • 13:40

      RONALD V. CLARKE: He was never really giventhe honors he should have had.He was an incredibly productive and interesting scholar.

    • 13:45

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Well, there was one allegationthat he had manipulated data.

    • 13:48

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Ah, yeah.

    • 13:49

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Sort of undermined--

    • 13:50

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Yeah.

    • 13:51

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Yes.

    • 13:53

      RONALD V. CLARKE: He was connected to [INAUDIBLE].Anyway, OK.Maybe.I don't know.But he certainly did a lot of good work.And he specifically undermined the effectivenessof talking therapies with very good experimental work,showed it didn't really work.

    • 14:14

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Yes.

    • 14:14

      RONALD V. CLARKE: And introducing behavior therapy.So he did a lot.

    • 14:17

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: OK.

    • 14:18

      RONALD V. CLARKE: And, of course, he did workon criminal personality.He developed a theory of extroversion and neuroticismas being the combined produced delinquent tendencies.I don't believe it, but he did it,and he was well-known for that.

    • 14:42

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: I went into this job as a trained clinician.And I spent a lot of time-- they didn't really knowwhat to do with me, actually.

    • 14:51

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: [LAUGHS]

    • 14:52

      RONALD V. CLARKE: They had no idea.They were very nice, but this jobwas dumped on them by the home office which was funding it.And I arrived there and they said oh, yes.Well thank you, yes.We've got an office for you.And they put me in the office.And they had a couple of meetings with me,but they had no idea what to do with me.

    • 15:12

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Yeah.

    • 15:13

      RONALD V. CLARKE: The only thing theydid know was that they wanted my work to be useful.

    • 15:16

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: All right.

    • 15:17

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Now I know I thinkthat's being extremely important influence on my career.

    • 15:22

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: All right.

    • 15:23

      RONALD V. CLARKE: I've tried to be useful.[LAUGHTER]I know that criminologists don't like interferingin the messy, real world.But I actually think that I define find myselfas trying to reduce crime.

    • 15:39

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: OK.

    • 15:40

      RONALD V. CLARKE: I've got a very correctional attitude.

    • 15:44

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: All right.

    • 15:45

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Which I know isfrowned upon by a lot of criminologists.It distorts your understanding of crime.

    • 15:50

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Mmm, yeah.

    • 15:52

      RONALD V. CLARKE: But your understanding of crimeis distorted by whatever angle youtake on the sociological, psychological, economic,or whatever.So policy relevance is not unique in distortingone's understanding.Anyway, that's by the way.

    • 16:11

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Yeah.

    • 16:14

      RONALD V. CLARKE: So I actually did a control trialin Kingswood Training School as well with Derek Cornish.We put together a randomized control trialof a particular therapeutic immunity.But that's by the way.The main thing that I was really interested in doing

    • 16:36

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: was in trying to figure out why boys were absconding,running away, escaping school, absconding from the system.

    • 16:44

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Yeah.

    • 16:47

      RONALD V. CLARKE: And the idea that Isold to the people who were employing mewas that if we could identify these boys,we could probably find some way of providingsome counseling or early intervention or something.These are all boys aged between-- I think was about 10

    • 17:08

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: and 17, that was the sort of age--that we could provide ways of stopping and absconding,predict and then stop.I did mountains of research.I had a lot of help, because I wasin an assessment center for the training schools as a whole.

    • 17:32

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: So boys came into the assessment center first.They spent three weeks there.They were interviewed by psychologists,teachers, social workers.And great track reports were producedwhich was supposed to guide their training as theywent through the school.

    • 17:53

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: You know, it's an ambitious and well thought out system.And I managed to get loads of datafor many, many boys because of the numbersthat came through the assessment center.And I collected every imaginable variableyou might think of, [INAUDIBLE] upbringing and parents

    • 18:14

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: and when they first got into delinquencyand what their records looked like, and everythingyou could think of.And more particularly, I got a lot of psychological testsundertaken.They routinely had IQ tests and other tests,

    • 18:34

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: personality and so on.I won't bore you with all the names of them.

    • 18:39

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: [LAUGHS]

    • 18:39

      RONALD V. CLARKE: But there were a lot of them.And I was a got some extra tests implemented or undertaken.

    • 18:47

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Yeah.

    • 18:48

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Because the results weren't working outtoo well.

    • 18:51

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: OK

    • 18:52

      RONALD V. CLARKE: So I spent about-- itmust have been about three years, at least,in the little office with one clerical assistant,hashing away on adding machines.

    • 19:04

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: But you're using the standard modelthat you had been--

    • 19:07

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Yeah.Yeah.

    • 19:09

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: --given.

    • 19:10

      RONALD V. CLARKE: This is standard research modelin my training.

    • 19:13

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: And then you triedto press the standard model ahead even further.

    • 19:16

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Yes.

    • 19:16

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: And I suppose at some pointthat that model, the souped up model that you produceddidn't even produce to your satisfaction.

    • 19:24

      RONALD V. CLARKE: No.There was very few differences between those who ran awayand those who didn't.Very few.I mean there were some, but they were minor and notreally worth rehearsing.

    • 19:36

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Yeah.

    • 19:38

      RONALD V. CLARKE: But at the same time,fortunately, I began to study aspectsof the school environment.And I related that to absconding.And here the results were much stronger and much richer.I can't tell you all of them.

    • 19:54

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Yeah.

    • 19:55

      RONALD V. CLARKE: But there were a lotof things I identified, by the way,through looking through the records.

    • 19:59

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Right Yeah, I thinkyou looked at things like seasonality.

    • 20:02

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Seasonality.And--

    • 20:04

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Time during the day.

    • 20:06

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Time in the day and time of admissionand whether boys had been visited by their parents.

    • 20:12

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: OK.

    • 20:12

      RONALD V. CLARKE: All that kind of regimeand environmental variables.But the most important thing I found latein this study, the home office knewI was doing this study because they were overseeing me.But they completely forgot to mentionthat they collected from all the schools absconding records

    • 20:36

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: every six months.Or every year, I forget which it was.And then they told me about them.And they said would you like to look at [INAUDIBLE]?

    • 20:45

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: [LAUGHS]

    • 20:49

      RONALD V. CLARKE: And that's where I foundthe most powerful results.So, for example, the boys at senior age--there's three bunches of age groups, senior schools,intermediate, and junior.What I found was a tremendous variation in the abscondingrates of the school.So the senior schools in one year

    • 21:11

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: I looked at had an absconding rate of-- the lowestwas 10% of the boys had run away in that year.And the highest school had 79% run away.And these schools received the same kinds of boys,because boys were routinely allocated

    • 21:31

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: from nearby their homes.So there was not much difference between the boysin the different schools.In any case, I've done all this researchshowing there was nothing much relatedto absconding in the personality or backgrounds of the boys.So that was a tremendous insight to me.I suddenly saw that the environment

    • 21:54

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: was so powerful in misbehavior.

    • 21:57

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Did you realize at that pointthat this would blossom into something bigger,or was it just sort of an interesting by-productof your research for a fact therethat you can hang your hat on?

    • 22:07

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Right, no.But it did make me think.

    • 22:09

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Yeah.

    • 22:10

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Because in my psychology degree,I had learned, and this one thing I remembered,was that somebody called Kurt Nadine had devised a verysimple formula about behavior.He said behavior is a function of the interaction

    • 22:34

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: between the person and the environment.OK?I'd forgotten that in a sense, because I was justdealing with the person.Whereas the environment was very powerfulfor this particular misbehavior.So I stored that little fact away in my head

    • 22:55

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: and though yeah, I wish I'd remember that.And I probably could have done more useful research.But that by that time, I left because I'dbeen there four years.And I applied for various jobs.I got a job offered me at Bristol Universityas, what you call an assistant professor.

    • 23:17

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: And the home office offered me a job.And I thought well, that will be much more interesting.

    • 23:23

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: What was the appeal of thatover an academic trajectory?

    • 23:26

      RONALD V. CLARKE: It's just so much more interesting?

    • 23:28

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Because you can do researchwithout having the teaching component of the servicecomponent?

    • 23:34

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Well no, not exactly.The job in the research unit was three-fold.I'll probably forget all three legs.But anyway, you had to undertake research of your ownunderneath the direction of the bosses.

    • 23:52

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Yeah.

    • 23:53

      RONALD V. CLARKE: You managed a program of external research.It was like the NIJ in that sense.But there was much more internal research at the home officethan there is at the NIJ.And then you had to provide adviceto civil servants in your department and ministers

    • 24:15

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: about things that were pressing issues of the day.

    • 24:20

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: So the useful aspect.

    • 24:21

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Yes.

    • 24:22

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Right.

    • 24:23

      RONALD V. CLARKE: So first of, all your researchhad to be useful.Secondly, the research you commissioned has to be useful.And thirdly, you had to make senseto people like ministers and senior civil servantsand so on about things that came up.

    • 24:45

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: Somebody saying we must have more police,or somebody saying we must reduce the length of stayin the prisons or something.You had to come up with some sensible statements thatdrew from criminology about these factors.So it was a very varied job, and I

    • 25:06

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: met a lot a very important and interesting people.I was even on a working group for Prince Charleswhen he was quite young.He decided he was going to have a trust, the Prince's Trustor something or other.It was juvenile delinquency.

    • 25:27

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: So you know, I met a lot of interesting people.I interacted with the home secretaries and the big wigs.And it's just very much more interestingthan stuck in a provincial university.

    • 25:42

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: I see some of your writing style.It's very plain-spoken.It lacks for much of the jargon that--

    • 25:48

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Well, that's what we were taught.

    • 25:50

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Right.

    • 25:53

      RONALD V. CLARKE: My boss at the research and planningunit used to say nobody can writebefore they're the age of 30.

    • 26:01

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: [CHUCKLES]

    • 26:05

      RONALD V. CLARKE: If he looked at one of your pieces,he was helping the people above you would do[AUDIO OUT]They would take out all the jargon--

    • 26:13

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: OK

    • 26:14

      RONALD V. CLARKE: --and say you got a sentence herethat's 35 words.You need three sentences of 10 words.

    • 26:21

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: [LAUGHS]

    • 26:22

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Then people willbe able to understand what you're talking about.

    • 26:24

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Yeah.

    • 26:25

      RONALD V. CLARKE: I mean, this is translationof criminology way, way back.

    • 26:29

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: OK.

    • 26:30

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Way, way back.You had to be clear.And I try to be clear in what I write.And I avoid jargon as much as I can,although we all have to use it from time to time.And that's one thing I have in common with Marcus [INAUDIBLE].He's even clearer than I am.

    • 26:50

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Oh, yeah.

    • 26:51

      RONALD V. CLARKE: He's a tremendously clear writer.

    • 26:53

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Yes.

    • 26:54

      RONALD V. CLARKE: But that we both tell each otherthat this is important.

    • 26:58

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Now speaking of collaborations,some of your earlier work was done with Cornish as well.So do you see some of the developmentsof the rational choice elements of whatyou were going to offer in a more full-fledged manner latertaking place at this earlier point as well?

    • 27:15

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Yes it did.Yes, because the early days of situational crime prevention,I worked with Pat Mayhew and [INAUDIBLE].Both prominent criminologists now.They were in [INAUDIBLE].And a bit with [INAUDIBLE].And so the only work on situation of crime prevention

    • 27:38

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: was mostly with those.But I was working with Derek Cornish on this control trialin the training school of the effectivenessof the therapeutic immunity regime.And we talked an awful lot about the failure of that work.

    • 27:59

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: It did the usual thing, nothing.Got exactly the same re-conviction rates from boththe therapeutic immunity and the traditional regimeand was randomly allocated and blah, blah, blah.

    • 28:10

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Mm-hmm.

    • 28:12

      RONALD V. CLARKE: And so we spent a lot of time thinkingabout what was going on.And one of the things that we decided, and itwas commonly theme, actually, in the rehabilitationcriminology of Great Britain, but not so much here, whereit was the reason that these residential programs don't

    • 28:35

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: bring about reform rehabilitationis that when the people leave in the confines of the institutionor the training school, they go backto their old environment, which is whatexerts the influence on them.That's why it's not working.And so we spent a lot of time thinking about that.

    • 28:58

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: And we developed, first of all, social learning theoryto explain that, drawing on work by people like Bandura.You've probably heard of him.And sort of arguing that he was a mixture of socialand learning that was producing these results.

    • 29:24

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: But then when we got into-- and Igot into specifically situational crime prevention.In the first paper I ever wrote on it,I'd been torn to Derek for a long time.I actually wrote into that paper a small theory of choice.I said people make choices.

    • 29:47

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: And I listed the various things thataffect those choices, one of which is the environment,of course.So that was in 1980 in the British Journal of Criminology.And we carried on talking.He did a study of gambling for the home office,

    • 30:07

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: and he found the same kind of situational influencesin that behavior.And we decided that we would try developa more formal-- we didn't call ita theory, we called it a perspective, a more developed

    • 30:28

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: perspective on offender decision making, which is what we latercalled the reasoning criminal.And that provided a lot of the theoretical underpinningfor situational crime prevention.It helps to explain it and support it.

    • 30:50

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: But it didn't go down very well with the criminologists.They didn't like it.

    • 30:57

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Too much economics?

    • 30:58

      RONALD V. CLARKE: That's book smart economics,but it isn't, actually.The basic idea is economics.The people commit crime to benefit themselves.That's the simple, basic idea.And it doesn't have to be economically.It can be sexually, it can be revenge, it can be 101 reasons.

    • 31:18

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: But they are doing it to benefit themselves.And then we laid out how the environment helps them do that.But it didn't go down well.In fact, it's still not really referred to much in England.It's referred to more over here.

    • 31:39

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: Well, the deviancy school, and the factthat it came from the government.So we were classic what they calledadministrative criminologists.

    • 31:50

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: [LAUGHS]

    • 31:52

      RONALD V. CLARKE: And, of course, Iprefer policy-relevant criminologists.But they were being pejorative.So we were [INAUDIBLE].And you know, that criminology in Britainheavily split between a lot of deviancy theory--which, some of is very interesting.We've both found some of that very interesting--

    • 32:15

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: and the more quantitative stuff like David Farrington might door the Jill Dando Institute might do.It's very split.But at that time we were writing this stuff,Jock Young and all those people were very powerfulin that particular [INAUDIBLE].

    • 32:31

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: The new criminology--

    • 32:32

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Yeah.We got brushed aside.

    • 32:35

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Now from what I understand,the situational aspects are very, are very well applied.And the international seemed relevant to the United States.

    • 32:45

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Yes.

    • 32:46

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: So they separate out the reasoning aspectsof what your offering from the situational groupfacts of a justice environment.

    • 32:54

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Yes, I think that's fair.I still think that-- well, let's just talk two things.First, I think that situational prevention thinking is notmuch more integrated into policy thinking in the UK,

    • 33:16

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: Europe-- there's some other countries in Europethan it is here.

    • 33:20

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Yeah.

    • 33:22

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Here it's implemented in a different way,through the private sector, which I'll come back to later,if I may.

    • 33:30

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: All right.Yeah.

    • 33:33

      RONALD V. CLARKE: So it is part of state policyin many European countries now, even France,which was very skeptical of it all at one time.And basically, the idea with situational crime preventionis that you simply should reduce the opportunities for crime.

    • 33:56

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: And there are many ways of doing this.We've identified five main ways.Increase the risk, increase the effort, reduce the rewards,remove excuses, and reduce provocations and temptations.And then there's a whole array of different things

    • 34:17

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: you can do under those.And there's a vast, vast number of thingsyou can do under that.And the case studies are mounting all the time,and that it's actually pretty effective.And you can bring about big reductions,completely eliminate some crimes if you get it right.

    • 34:42

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: But again, that was not a popular ideain criminology at the time.It gradually has got accepted more and more, I think,in criminology.Still a bit unpopular.It's made a much bigger impact on policy than any other ideas,

    • 35:04

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: I think.

    • 35:05

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: So what accounts for the emerging success?

    • 35:08

      RONALD V. CLARKE: It works.The criminologists might say OK.Yes, it works, but it's not what I'm interested in.[LAUGHTER]Whereas I'm very interested in what works.

    • 35:22

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: All right.

    • 35:23

      RONALD V. CLARKE: They say well, yes.OK, but you're trivializing the problem.You are simply managing the problem.And that's fine by me.I don't care.As long as it comes down and reduces harm,that's what I'm interested in.

    • 35:41

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: So there's also accountfor maybe why it's much more used in the private setting asopposed to the public setting?

    • 35:48

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Yes, the private sectoris much more pragmatic, isn't it?They're not going to do things to reducetheir chances of a crime.It does no good.

    • 35:60

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: All right.Because they've got an investment--

    • 36:04

      RONALD V. CLARKE: They've got an investment and loose cost.

    • 36:07

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Yes, all right.

    • 36:09

      RONALD V. CLARKE: And I want to say moreabout this in a minute, but it's everywherein the private sector, actually.Everywhere.Well, maybe I could go on and talk about that.

    • 36:25

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Sure.

    • 36:26

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Because I'm very interested in thisat the moment.If you think about what's gone on in our lives in the last 30years, which, I suppose, we all do,but the thing that strikes me is the incredible increasein security.

    • 36:47

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: And I call crime prevention, but other people call it security.It's in every sphere of life.You just think about all the thingsthat you do in an ordinary day.Your car has become very much more secure.Houses are much more secure.

    • 37:08

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: Truck public transport is much more secure.Public housing projects, credit cards.Everything, everywhere you look, there'san increase in security.And I think that's very remarkable.We all remember the day-- well, you were too young.

    • 37:29

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: But I remember the days when you just went out and didn't botherto lock the house door because there's nothing worth stealingin there.You know?I mean--

    • 37:38

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: [LAUGHS]

    • 37:39

      RONALD V. CLARKE: --but changed in the 1960'sas Felson and Cohen have very correctly pointed out.But lightweight, electronic goodsbecame very available and fairly cheap,so people could stuff their homeswith TVs and radios and all of that junk, which

    • 38:02

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: we proliferated since then.And more women were working away from home,so you had an increase in opportunity,with many more things worth stealing and much easierto steal.That's what, in my view-- not everyone would agree, I know,but in my view, I think that's what

    • 38:22

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: pushed up the crime rates in the 1960s and '70s, escalated them.In the '50s, it was [INAUDIBLE].It was much lower [INAUDIBLE].It's like it is now, actually.

    • 38:35

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Yeah.

    • 38:36

      RONALD V. CLARKE: And so I think what's been happening--and this is controversial, I know a lot of people wont'agree with this, but I think what's been happening--and I'm not the main person arguing this,by the way-- the main people are Jan Van Dijk, GrahamFarrell, and Nick Tilley.

    • 38:57

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: And they're arguing that the drop in crimethat is not just in America, by any means, it's international.In westernized countries they're all dropping, all dropping.And it because they've all had [INAUDIBLE]or because they've had a crack epidemicor because of the other 15 or 16 explanations

    • 39:20

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: that might fit America.They don't fit the rest of the world, first of all.But these guys are arguing, and Ithink they've got very good evidence,that it's because of security.We've learned how to, in the face of all these crime

    • 39:41

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: opportunities, we're learning to get them under control.That's what I think.

    • 39:46

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: OK.

    • 39:49

      RONALD V. CLARKE: The people who are studying the crimedrop in this country don't really buy that argument.I'm not sure why.But I think it's partly because of whatI see as this continuing problem of tryingto explain crime entirely in terms of what's within people.

    • 40:16

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: So their interest in the things thatwill change criminal motivation, like less crack or something,or whatever all those other arguments are.Economic, either good or bad economics.They're interested in what's the quote, "root" causes.

    • 40:39

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: So if your writings,you reference a couple different pieces thereas kind of instrumental that were in the air at the time,so to speak, that you were beginningthe process of critiquing psychology and movingin a more pragmatic direction, in a manner of speaking.

    • 40:57

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Yes.

    • 40:58

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: So the "nothing works" was out,I guess, in the UK.You reference to the Brody Report?

    • 41:03

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Yes.

    • 41:04

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: I suppose a similar outline there?

    • 41:05

      RONALD V. CLARKE: It was very similar to the one over here,the Martinson report.

    • 41:08

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Rehabilitation hasproven generally unsuccessful, or to a degree thatwouldn't merit more investment.J.P. Wilson's thinking about crimethere was very critical of this idea of [INAUDIBLE].

    • 41:21

      RONALD V. CLARKE: That's a wonderful book, in many ways.

    • 41:23

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: And then on the other side of the ledgerthere were things that were kind of interestingor drew your attention in a positive light.C. Ray Jeffery's Crime PreventionThrough Environmental Design and Oscar Newman'sDefensible Space.And Cornish references something there thatwas new to my eye, that was apparently

    • 41:44

      BRENDAN DOOLEY [continued]: embedded within your tradition in the UK--environmental learning theory.

    • 41:49

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Yes

    • 41:50

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: And then you coineda term called physical crime prevention at that point.

    • 41:54

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Yes.

    • 41:54

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Could you talk to usabout how those schools of thought kind ofinfluenced or informed--

    • 41:59

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Yes, well can I just mention one other study?

    • 42:06

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Sure.

    • 42:08

      RONALD V. CLARKE: While we were workingon the situational crime prevention stuff in the homeoffice, the study that had most influence on us, really,or the findings was the detoxificationof the gas supply.

    • 42:23

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Ah, OK.

    • 42:25

      RONALD V. CLARKE: What had happenedwas that over a period of about, I think it was about 20 years,the gas supply in Britain had progressively been detoxified.That is, the carbon monoxide was taken out of it.This happened in two stages.First, they moved the production of domestic gas,

    • 42:51

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: you know, for cooking and eating and all that,away from coal production to oil production.And oil-produced gas was a lot less carbon monoxide[INAUDIBLE].So the toxicity of the gas declined.And the next step was when vast reserves about this north sea

    • 43:16

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: oil we discovered, including gas fields.And so they converted all of the gas appliances--I can actually remember them doing this, coming to my houseand changing the gas appliances to burn natural gas, notoil-produced gas.So natural gas has no carbon monoxide in it.

    • 43:37

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: It's not poisonous.You can't kill yourself with that unless you suffocate.You block up all the holes around the roomwith carbon monoxide gas.And then you turn it on.Well, you'll die quite quickly.But with natural gas, you won't.You'll almost certainly not die.

    • 44:03

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: Now, what's the point of this?The point of it is that at the beginning of the period,50% of all suicides in the UK were done by domestic gas, OK?So you take away the lethality of the domestic gas,and what you see?You see a large fall in the overall suicide rate.

    • 44:25

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: Not just the domestic gas suicide rate.That is wiped out.So now instead of being 50% at the end of the period,it's something like 0.3% of all deaths, for various reasons.And that was extremely instructivebecause that was an environmental change.

    • 44:45

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: It wasn't done, obviously, not to prevent suicide.It was done to save money.It's cheaper.And so here was an environmental changethat dramatically affected a behavior that everybody

    • 45:06

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: thought was deeply driven.OK?You don't commit suicide unless you're very unhappy.And that's probably true, on the whole,but the thing is you're unhappy, usually, for a short time.So if you don't commit suicide at that time,you're not likely to go and do it six months laterwhen you've cheered up.

    • 45:27

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Is that what sparkedthe intuition that displacement doesn't occur, either?

    • 45:32

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Yes.That was very-- and when you thought about it a bit,you can see why it didn't happen.Well, because if you kill yourself with gas,it's very easy.It's very lethal.You need very little preparation.All you need to do is turn on the gas taps

    • 45:54

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: and lie down and put your head in the gas oven.That's usually what was done.And so old, depressed people could do it easily.They're not anywhere near so easy to take pills and killyourself.That's still very lethal.You can swallow dozens of pills, and most people don't die.

    • 46:18

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: So what are the alternatives?Shoot yourself.OK, they didn't have guns in the UK.Jump out of tall buildings-- there weren't that many.And old people, you know, how could they get into them?You put your head on the railway tracks.There's lots of railways, but that's a very unpleasant wayto kill yourself.

    • 46:39

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: And you've got to scramble down things.And it was just so much easier.And the alternatives were so much worse.

    • 46:48

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: [CHUCKLES]

    • 46:49

      RONALD V. CLARKE: So what that toldus is that people are thinking about these alternativesin the light of what's open to them.And displacement isn't going to happenfor a lot of-- but it didn't happen for suicide, not much.There was a bit, but not much.And for most of the research we'vedone since, we're blocking opportunities

    • 47:10

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: on different forms of crime.The overall message by now is that displacement happens,but it's farily-- it's not complete,and it's often doesn't happen at all.And, in fact, you get somewhat we call diffusion of benefits,too.

    • 47:31

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: I'm maybe be going too fast, but what diffusion of benefitsis is say you've got a housing estate here.Public, in Britain, there's council housing estates.And say you improve the lighting on therebecause it's been such a mess, crime and so on.

    • 47:53

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: If displacement is correct, you oughtto get more crime in the surrounding area.In fact, what we've found repeatedlyis that you get less crime in the surrounding areawhen you've protected the hot spot, as it were.So that's diffusion of benefits.It is a double whammy.

    • 48:14

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: You get an extra bang for your buck.

    • 48:19

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Looking at your vita,and looking at all the travelling that you've doneover the course of your career and the consortium that youlead, environmental criminology just generally meetsinternationally.What accounts for the greater success elsewhereversus the states?Is it that element of we still beholden to theold sociological ideas that--

    • 48:40

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Yes.

    • 48:41

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: [INAUDIBLE].

    • 48:42

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Yes.I think that criminology here is more of a sociologicaldiscipline than anything.I'd expect you'd agree.

    • 48:49

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Yeah.

    • 48:53

      RONALD V. CLARKE: It came out of sociology, in a sense,in this country.That wasn't quite so true in Europe.So I think that's part of it.There was another reason, I've just forgotten what it was.

    • 49:12

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Are they much more interesting in financingthat in a public way abroad?

    • 49:18

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Well, I know I know the other reason is.Americans don't listen to social science from abroad.

    • 49:24

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Oh, OK.

    • 49:26

      RONALD V. CLARKE: They really don't.Well, at least in our discipline.Here there's some quite well-known people in Europewho do very good things.We mention Jan Van Dijk.

    • 49:36

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Right, right.Yes.

    • 49:38

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Now he's very clever,but he's pretty well unknown over here.I mean, you will know him becauseof your particular position.

    • 49:46

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Correct.

    • 49:47

      RONALD V. CLARKE: In most people who write research,they don't look at stuff.This is why we've got this problem with the crime drophere, that they're simply looking at America.And they don't really trust social scientistsfrom overseas.I don't know why it is.

    • 50:10

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Maybe American exceptionalism or something.

    • 50:12

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Something of that kind.

    • 50:16

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: And also looking at your vita here,there are any number of items that you discussthroughout your career here.Let me just take a brief moment here and tick them off.Absconding, electronic commerce, suicide, vandalism.You've dealt with crime in public transport.You have the elephant in the background.

    • 50:36

      BRENDAN DOOLEY [continued]: Elephant poaching has been discussed.Cell phone fraud, motor vehicle theft, speeding.On your own vita here you list a number of different itemsthere.Criminological theory, psychology of crime, terrorism,suicide, burglary, vandalism, robbery, vehicle theft,crime prevention, police effectiveness,effectiveness of penal treatment,

    • 50:57

      BRENDAN DOOLEY [continued]: institutional regimes, evaluation methodology,research and policy.Now this leads me thus into a question here in terms ofdo you see these as discrete items,or is there a unifying thread herethat kind of-- upon which they all cohere?

    • 51:12

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Yes, I see themas all part of the same thing.This is another-- I'm going to sound terribly critical,but this is another thing that I find a bit annoying about mostcriminology, is that it's not crime-specific enough.

    • 51:34

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Ah, OK.

    • 51:35

      RONALD V. CLARKE: The dependent variablein most of these studies of theory is crime or delinquency.And they may break it down a little bit.

    • 51:43

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: All right.

    • 51:44

      RONALD V. CLARKE: But crime is tremendously specific.And we ignore that all the time.I had a class yesterday where some Iget the students to pick on particular problemand then think about it from my perspective.

    • 52:03

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: All right.

    • 52:04

      RONALD V. CLARKE: And the great variety of topicsthat came up with, it's very interesting.One of them did a paper on illegal freshwater fishing.OK?Another one did a paper on cyber bullying.

    • 52:25

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: Another one did a paper on our assaultsagainst police officers.There was a very great variety.

    • 52:33

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: All right.

    • 52:34

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Now all of [AUDIO OUT] thingsare quite different.The guy who does the cyber bullyingis not the guy who's going out there illegal fishing,basically.

    • 52:44

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Yeah, right.

    • 52:47

      RONALD V. CLARKE: And it's such an obvious point.And the reason that it's so importantis that the decisions about what you're going to doare influenced heavily by the particular opportunitystructure for that type of crime.So when I'm looking at all these different types of crime,

    • 53:09

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: I'm trying to understand the opportunity structurefor car theft.And there's maybe 20 different kinds of car theft, by the way,or not quite that many.I've identified 15, I think.They're all different.Stealing hubcaps in Newark is verydifferent from stealing a car to export out

    • 53:31

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: of Newark docks to West Africa-- a Mercedes.That's a different.It's car theft, but it's completely, completelydifferent.

    • 53:41

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Should we be thinkingabout building theory from the groundup from these micro observations,or is theory just an abstraction that you don'tcare to worry yourself with?

    • 53:55

      RONALD V. CLARKE: I'm very ambivalent about theory,because I actually think it's very important to understandthe basic components, of the building blocks of theory.I think that's very important.I get very bored with the attemptsto really refine these building blocks,

    • 54:19

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: squeeze as much as you can out of each particular explanationand measure it in different ways.I get bored with that.But I think it's important to havea general feeling, general understanding of how behaviorworks.

    • 54:39

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: And then we go into criminal behavior.It's pretty much the same thing.

    • 54:43

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Is this why you'vesettled on this term of, the label perspective asopposed to theory or framework or something?

    • 54:52

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Yes, yes.Derek and I believe that we weren't really buildinga theory, we were building a perspective, a wayto look at things.And we called it good enough theory.

    • 55:09

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: [CHUCKLES]

    • 55:10

      RONALD V. CLARKE: It was good enoughto help us solve the problems that we were looking at,but we didn't want to turn it into a huge, complex-- wewanted to outline it and say emotions matter and rewardsmatter and that sort of thing.But we didn't want to go into a lot of detail.

    • 55:31

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: In fact, there's now quite a strong move, a couple of bookscame out a couple of years ago, which are supposedlybuilt on The Reasoning Criminal, wherethe authors, the edited books, aretrying to refine our perspective and make it a lot more complexand take into account more deeply

    • 55:57

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: things like affect and details of cognition, and so on.Now that's fine.I'm very happy someone's doing it.But I'm happy it's not me.

    • 56:08

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: [LAUGHS]

    • 56:10

      RONALD V. CLARKE: So that's fine.But I stick-- and I'm sure Derek does, probablyeven more strictly than I do to the basic ideathat you just need good enough ideas to steer your workand problem solve.

    • 56:28

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Well, it seems like you split yourselfin some others from the positivists.

    • 56:32

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Yes.

    • 56:33

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: You kind of camp there, and moved towards a--

    • 56:36

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Yes, we did without really realizing it,but I know this happened because Jock Young wasvery critical of my work.

    • 56:44

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: [LAUGHS]

    • 56:46

      RONALD V. CLARKE: And he ended up not being so bad.But he was very critical of it to begin with.And then someone told me who knew him very well, shesaid she met him in the corridor one dayand was going down they're likely saying, you know,Ron Clarke's not a positivist.[LAUGHTER]

    • 57:07

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: This is a great story.So I suppose that you have the rational choice.It's coherent with the situation [INAUDIBLE]

    • 57:20

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Yes.

    • 57:23

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: So it all fits under the same umbrella,just so I'm understanding correctly here.

    • 57:27

      RONALD V. CLARKE: It does, yes.They fit together closely, as far as I'm concerned.

    • 57:35

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Now thinking about a retrospectiveon the things that you've done over the courseyour career here, I'm wondering whichones you look back on with the most of pride.And looking at your vita, I thinkthat there might be three different arenas in which youcould lay some claim to offering something

    • 57:55

      BRENDAN DOOLEY [continued]: of lasting importance-- scholarship.But the applied aspects lead me to a second conclusionhere in terms of eradicating crime, eliminatingcertain aspects of crime.Certainly some of those observationswith people putting their heads in ovens and thingslike that has had an appreciable impact in terms

    • 58:15

      BRENDAN DOOLEY [continued]: of less of a body count.And maybe thirdly here, you're at the epicenterof an enormous network of scholars,not only in the United States, but throughout the world herethat have been influential in termsof advancing an argument here.Could you speak to some of those aspects there in terms of[INAUDIBLE]

    • 58:35

      RONALD V. CLARKE: I think I'm reallymust attached to situational prevention, the actual--that it can actually see things that have worked.It's often something very specific.But I'm sure if I really thought about it hard enough Icould find a way of reducing the illegal freshwater fishing.

    • 58:60

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: Not that I would bother, because I don't thinkit's quite dangerous.There are more dangerous things than that.But I think it could be done, applyingthe same set of techniques.

    • 59:14

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Yeah.

    • 59:16

      RONALD V. CLARKE: So that's what I'm actually most proud of.But I'd like to pick you up on one of your statements.

    • 59:22

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Yes?

    • 59:23

      RONALD V. CLARKE: You said that I'mat-- with some other people-- at the epicenterof an enormous group of-- it's not enormous.

    • 59:31

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: No.

    • 59:32

      RONALD V. CLARKE: It's quite small.

    • 59:33

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: OK.

    • 59:34

      RONALD V. CLARKE: It's really the peoplethat regularly come to ECCA, whichis the Environmental Criminology and Crime Analysis Symposium.It's only about 70 or 80 people.You compare that with the AmericanSociety of Criminology, it's small stuff, really.

    • 59:54

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: And that's a disappointment to me,because I think-- I mean, I would like to see it bigger,not because it makes any difference to me-- I'm gettingtoo old to bother with that-- but because I wantto see criminology more integrated into modern lifeand more useful and have more interesting careers for people

    • 01:00:17

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: who take criminology.

    • 01:00:18

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: OK.

    • 01:00:20

      RONALD V. CLARKE: I think there's an awful lot that wecould be doing out there.

    • 01:00:24

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Do you think the infrastructure willlast long enough that there will be a continuinggeneration of scholars that will continueto come back up that could lead to some growth and expansionthere?I think one of the things that we oftentimesdon't pay enough attention to in the field is peoplewho build these institutions thatproved to have some sort of lasting-- they endure,

    • 01:00:46

      BRENDAN DOOLEY [continued]: in a sense.And that's how ideas are oftentimes preserved.

    • 01:00:51

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Well, I'm not absolutely sure what you mean,but do you mean-- I mean, for example, the Jill DandoInstitute of Crime Science.Is that the kind of thing--

    • 01:00:59

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: I suppose so, yes.

    • 01:01:00

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Yes.Well, that will endure.There's no doubt about that, because the modelis very solid.

    • 01:01:07

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Right

    • 01:01:11

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Based on my sort of ideas expandedinto other people's, but they are very firmlyin an engineering department.

    • 01:01:21

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Maybe a better point of referencemight be the home office.It seems like, reading some of the work here,The Reasoning Criminologist, it seemslike you're on more of the pessimistic end, where as someof your colleagues seem to be a more optimistic end.But the home office or some sort of stamp of situational crimeprevention there.

    • 01:01:42

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Oh, I see what you mean.Well, it's interesting.The home office-- I mean, we had trouble selling the ideato the home office, originally.

    • 01:01:55

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Right

    • 01:01:56

      RONALD V. CLARKE: They thought it was a bit trivial, really.[LAUGHTER]I mean, everybody knows that it'spoverty that's the problem.

    • 01:02:05

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: So they thought this was maybejust an artifact of you producinga new variable and just--

    • 01:02:11

      RONALD V. CLARKE: That's right.They thought well, I suppose it's interesting,but it's not really getting at the problem.It's not the root causes that we need to deal with.

    • 01:02:20

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: OK

    • 01:02:21

      RONALD V. CLARKE: So they didn't take it very seriously,and I had troubled relationship with the home office.Some of the policy people seem to have taken ita lot more seriously in the recent, let's say, 15 years.But even now, I saw a paper the other day

    • 01:02:42

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: that came out of the home office that was fairly critical of allof this.It was well-argued, actually.I didn't agree with the points.So I don't think the home office has reallygot a big investment in this.

    • 01:03:03

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: But I think it's part because they don't understand,in my view, that they have a role in tryingto work with businesses or industry and architectsand all those kinds of people in trying to reduce opportunities

    • 01:03:25

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: for crime.They don't understand that.What they do-- in fact, I've neverbeen able to get any research money spent,either by them or NIJ on looking at improving security.

    • 01:03:46

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: So just to take one example, OK?You will know that the number of securityguards in this country outnumber servingpolice officers by quite a bit.I'm not sure of the actual numbers.Then NIJ hasn't ever funded any work on security officers,

    • 01:04:06

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: as far as I'm aware.In fact, I hardly know of any studiesat all on the effectiveness of guards.But you look at all the stuff on policing-- you know,there's a mismatch there.So what these government departments dois they think about the things that they can directly

    • 01:04:28

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: control-- policing, courts, prisons.They forget the outside world.

    • 01:04:36

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Well, it's a formal versus informal kindof model, I suppose, though, right?So the formal or the bureaucratic aspectsversus the things that happen in everyday life [INAUDIBLE]alliteration there.

    • 01:04:48

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Yeah.

    • 01:04:49

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: OK.

    • 01:04:51

      RONALD V. CLARKE: So I think that the future could-- I mean,I'm dreaming now-- but I think the future couldinvoke policy working outside the criminal justice system.I mean, people in charge of crime policyworking outside the criminal justice system.

    • 01:05:11

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: We have to have the criminal justice system, of course.

    • 01:05:14

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Well that sounds like it's-- now I getto the point about you standing out,you and the entire group standing outside of criminologyhere.Because the governmental avenues seemto be less than accommodating, shall we say.And then the academic environment, as well,has not really wanted to--

    • 01:05:34

      RONALD V. CLARKE: [INAUDIBLE] was very [INAUDIBLE].So I mean, in a way, that's why we started it.

    • 01:05:42

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: OK.All right.

    • 01:05:45

      RONALD V. CLARKE: The crime prevention studies and ECCAbegan at about the same term to give usa venue and an audience and a meeting place.I hope in the end it'll-- I don't know that it ever will,actually.That was why we started it all, because we

    • 01:06:08

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: felt-- I'd got to an ASC meeting,and I'd think, oh my god.I really can't take this.[LAUGHTER]And I stopped going because it got so tedious, you know,besides from all the usual things, like you can nevertalk to anyone for more than a minute.

    • 01:06:28

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: [LAUGHS]

    • 01:06:31

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Such are the ways of meetings.But I just got really bored with itall, because it wasn't dealing with thingsthat I thought were important.I mean, now that's a very big old statement.You know what I'm talking about.

    • 01:06:45

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: [INAUDIBLE].Now I see a couple of suppose mainstayshere in terms of the elements thatare generally critical of the situational perspective, oneof which you've already mentioned here,the administrative criminology critique that's generallyon the part of the left.But you do say the right has its own kind of--

    • 01:07:07

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Yes

    • 01:07:08

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Grief to bear, because you're notaccused of enough there in terms of those kinds of things.What would you have to say about the varied attemptsto integrate some of these aspects?So Ron Akers has made an attempt, for instance,to appropriate some of the thingsthat you've offered as simple issue of stimulus-response,

    • 01:07:30

      BRENDAN DOOLEY [continued]: which, I guess, gets back to the psychology.

    • 01:07:33

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    • 01:07:34

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: There's been a numberof efforts there to fit this in with the neighborhood typeof typologist research there.What would you have to say about those kindsof general attempts?Have those--

    • 01:07:48

      RONALD V. CLARKE: I haven't found them very helpful,to be honest.I can see what's happening.

    • 01:07:53

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Yeah.

    • 01:07:55

      RONALD V. CLARKE: The problem, like just to take Ron Akers,he tended to think what we were talking aboutwas increased punishment without really lookingat what we were talking about.Punishment is-- I don't think it works.

    • 01:08:09

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Because it's too far removed.

    • 01:08:11

      RONALD V. CLARKE: It's too far awayfrom the immediate situation.

    • 01:08:14

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: All right.

    • 01:08:15

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Catching people and making it hardfor them to do it is right at the situation, and that works.

    • 01:08:21

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: OK

    • 01:08:22

      RONALD V. CLARKE: But punishing them way down the road--

    • 01:08:26

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: If at all, right?

    • 01:08:29

      RONALD V. CLARKE: --much research shows that's useless.So I haven't his particular take on it very useful.And going back to a more formal, psychological model I don'tthink is particularly useful.And I don't really agree with the attempted integration

    • 01:08:55

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: of situational with community prevention.

    • 01:09:01

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: OK.

    • 01:09:04

      RONALD V. CLARKE: In fact, when they tried to do this--they've tried to do this in Britain and other countries.They've tried to accommodate both.

    • 01:09:12

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: OK

    • 01:09:12

      RONALD V. CLARKE: What's happenedis that it's mostly situational.Because it's easy to do that.And it brings more immediate results.So I don't think it's worked.

    • 01:09:25

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Yeah.

    • 01:09:26

      RONALD V. CLARKE: And I don't think it could work, really.I mean, some people argue that whatyou've got to do in situational crime preventionis get rid of the big problems and thenfocus on the deeper problems.See, I think that's the same old thinking.The deeper problems are the ones that

    • 01:09:46

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: involve the root causes, whereas I don't thinkthere's a distinction between a root cause and an opportunitycause.They're the same.They're all causes.But there's a yearning among criminologists and social

    • 01:10:08

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: scientists to prove society, and with criminologists oftenat bit on the side of the criminal,making that a better person.I mean, I think you make people a better personby not letting them do these bad things.[LAUGHTER]

    • 01:10:33

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: It's a very mixed up-- this whole business of the-- well,the word is-- that's what I'm goingto be talking about in Stockholm,is the fundamental attribution error.

    • 01:10:47

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: OK

    • 01:10:48

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Which is the error discoveredby psychologists, which is we tendto attribute the bad behavior of other peopleto the kind of person they are.

    • 01:11:01

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: OK.

    • 01:11:02

      RONALD V. CLARKE: OK?When we do something bad, we attribute that to situations.

    • 01:11:08

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: All right.

    • 01:11:10

      RONALD V. CLARKE: So that's a loutwho's speeding past me in the car, OK?But when I'm speeding, I'm speeding because it's safeand I'm in a hurry and I'm not going to cause an accident.I have a rationale for why I'm not doing it.But when someone else is doing it,

    • 01:11:30

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: one starts getting punitive.

    • 01:11:32

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: [CHUCKLES]

    • 01:11:35

      RONALD V. CLARKE: But the main pointis that we have a tendency to attribute bad behaviorto the characteristics in the people ratherthan the immediate temptations and opportunities.So I think that that's got to change or we'll never--we'll never get a grip on crime.

    • 01:11:58

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Could you speak to usa little bit about the value of all your co-authorshipsover the course of the years?

    • 01:12:04

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Oh, yes, yes.I've had a wonderful time working with some extremelyclever people.And I see myself as a kind of serial collaborator.

    • 01:12:18

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: [LAUGHS]

    • 01:12:19

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Because, you know,when I'm in a particular place and time--you know Derek and Pat Mayhew-- Ifound it very interesting to workwith them and spin-off ideas.And then in I'd moved somewhere else or to a different problem,

    • 01:12:39

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: then I get sometimes a different collaborator,like David Lester with his suicide work.And lots of people.Lots of them.And really smart people who-- I don't reallyhave the confidence to think new thoughts on my own.

    • 01:13:00

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: I've got to kind of try them out and get validity or getcriticism or whatever it is from the people.So I don't like the lone scientist idea.

    • 01:13:16

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: So what helps that collaborationbe productive?Is it focus on a particular problem, that youbought kind of puzzle it out?

    • 01:13:25

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Problem focus is very important.I think you should always start with the problem ratherthan the theory or an approach.

    • 01:13:37

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: And then you exhaustively in minute detail--

    • 01:13:41

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Work out from the problem.

    • 01:13:43

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: --define it.The definition seems to be of central importance.

    • 01:13:48

      RONALD V. CLARKE: I think a problem orientationis very important.Otherwise, you get lost.You're all over the place.You're putting variables from here and thereand matching them all up into some hopeless theory.But if you've got a problem and you've alsogot a focus of trying to reduce that problem,

    • 01:14:09

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: I think it makes you think much harder.And I think that's what most of my collaborationshave really been about, trying to work out what's going on.What is this problem, and how can wereduce it to [INAUDIBLE]?

    • 01:14:30

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: I find that very interesting.

    • 01:14:32

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Now had the growth of the experimentalaspect of the field-- has that been beneficial--

    • 01:14:38

      RONALD V. CLARKE: No, it hasn't.

    • 01:14:40

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Has it not?

    • 01:14:41

      RONALD V. CLARKE: No.I mean, I'm a psychologist.

    • 01:14:44

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Yeah.

    • 01:14:44

      RONALD V. CLARKE: I was trained in experimental methods.

    • 01:14:47

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Right.

    • 01:14:48

      RONALD V. CLARKE: I'm a great believer in them.

    • 01:14:50

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Yes.

    • 01:14:51

      RONALD V. CLARKE: But I'm not really a great believer in themin our field.I think they have their place.

    • 01:14:57

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Not even within the situational paradigm there,in terms of--

    • 01:14:60

      RONALD V. CLARKE: It's too hard.

    • 01:15:01

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Is it?

    • 01:15:02

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Yes.I mean, most of the things that you-- most of the researchthat I've done has been natural experiments.

    • 01:15:10

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: OK.

    • 01:15:11

      RONALD V. CLARKE: So something has changedand I've looked at it.

    • 01:15:14

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: All right.The gas thing is just sort of the--

    • 01:15:17

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Yes, I had nothing to do

    • 01:15:19

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: You weren't the one responsible for all that.

    • 01:15:22

      RONALD V. CLARKE: The only thing that I had was having my gastaps changed on my cooker.

    • 01:15:26

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: OK.

    • 01:15:28

      RONALD V. CLARKE: So I think it's very hard.But let me just say this [INAUDIBLE], OK?

    • 01:15:38

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Mm-hmm.

    • 01:15:39

      RONALD V. CLARKE: If you're re-lighting a city center,that's an expensive process.

    • 01:15:46

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Yes.

    • 01:15:47

      RONALD V. CLARKE: And ideally, youwould like to do it randomly.

    • 01:15:50

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: OK.

    • 01:15:50

      RONALD V. CLARKE: You know, I'll do these.I'll toss as coin.And then I'll do that head zonker in that stream.

    • 01:15:56

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Yeah, yeah.

    • 01:15:57

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Tails, I'll go in that one.But can you imagine trying to get anyone to do that?

    • 01:16:02

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: All right.Yeah.

    • 01:16:04

      RONALD V. CLARKE: I mean, if they look,why the heck do we want to do this for?We know it's going to make it better.We wouldn't be spending all this money on the lighting.And anyway, if we did it this way,it's going to be so much more expensive.

    • 01:16:17

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Right, right.

    • 01:16:18

      RONALD V. CLARKE: We need to do it all here.

    • 01:16:20

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: All right.

    • 01:16:21

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Do you see my point?

    • 01:16:23

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: So it happens within this largerpolitical kind of background--

    • 01:16:26

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Yes, yes.

    • 01:16:28

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: --the economic backgroundthat you're informing.

    • 01:16:30

      RONALD V. CLARKE: And anyway, Derek and Iwrote a paper that has been criticizedvery heavily by Ferrington, Weisburd even,who is a friend of mine.

    • 01:16:41

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Yeah.

    • 01:16:43

      RONALD V. CLARKE: I'm so sorry to mention it-- and Sherman,for having undermined the progress of control trialsin Britain for 30 years.Because we wrote a paper about our experienceof running this therapeutic community controlled trialwhere we said OK, this looks like a good idea.

    • 01:17:05

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: But actually, it was a terrible ideabecause it was so expensive and disruptive,and we weren't controlling all the variables.So, for example, this is an extreme versionof what we talked about.Nearly at the end of the study, the housemaster whois in charge of the traditional regime

    • 01:17:28

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: got arrested for interfering with boys.

    • 01:17:30

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Huh.OK.

    • 01:17:33

      RONALD V. CLARKE: So what does thattell you about the integrity of the experiment?

    • 01:17:36

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: No, right.

    • 01:17:37

      RONALD V. CLARKE: And so we wrote a lot of stuffabout how this looks good.

    • 01:17:41

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Yeah.

    • 01:17:42

      RONALD V. CLARKE: But then the other thing is youcan't-- randomized controlled trials have had their heydayand still do, of course, in medicine,where you got double blind.

    • 01:17:54

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Yes.

    • 01:17:55

      RONALD V. CLARKE: The person doesn't knowthey're getting the treatment.And the person getting the treatmentdoesn't know who's getting the active ingredient.

    • 01:18:04

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Mm-hmm.

    • 01:18:05

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Now that's very important,because we know that suggestibility'sso important to human behavior.So those kinds of things are verydifficult to do in our field.I'm sure it could be done more, and I would like to.But I don't think it's a sole way to advance the science.

    • 01:18:28

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: And, in fact, I was pretty annoyed with the "What Works"thing.Because they took one or two of the studiesthat we had done and said this is not a good study because itcan't be replicated, those are statistics-- various things

    • 01:18:51

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: which were silly.So, for example, we never used any stats on our suicide--[AUDIO OUT]We just showed the data.It's so clear.

    • 01:19:05

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Right.

    • 01:19:07

      RONALD V. CLARKE: And it--[LAUGHTER]Why do you need all this?

    • 01:19:12

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: OK.

    • 01:19:13

      RONALD V. CLARKE: But I was annoyed by the factthat these studies were downgradedto suggestive or something, rather than-- anyway,that's history now.

    • 01:19:21

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Sure.

    • 01:19:22

      RONALD V. CLARKE: I think most people havegot to be fed up with this, with the randomized control trialidea.

    • 01:19:33

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Thinking about where the field is right now,what do you think it ought to be turningits attention to at this point?

    • 01:19:41

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Crime specificity.

    • 01:19:43

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: More and more the definitional aspectsof things and getting less abstract and more--

    • 01:19:48

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Less abstract.You know, that's what criminology'sbeen such a problem, is the dependent variablehas been abstract.Crime, it's a collection of a whole-- it'sa highly abstract variable.

    • 01:20:02

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Right.

    • 01:20:03

      RONALD V. CLARKE: And then all the independent variablesare abstract.

    • 01:20:06

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: OK.

    • 01:20:07

      RONALD V. CLARKE: So you're trying to mesh--

    • 01:20:09

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Abstraction on abstraction.

    • 01:20:10

      RONALD V. CLARKE: --abstraction, and so youget very poor results.

    • 01:20:12

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: OK.

    • 01:20:13

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Which Piquero and Weisburdshowed in their review of the etiological research thatwas reported in criminology.So I think we've got to get more concrete, more specific,especially crime-specific.

    • 01:20:34

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: And we've got to move out of comfortable environment.Frank Cullen makes this point in his big speech at the ASCsome time ago, where he said we gottaget away from adolescent-limited criminology.

    • 01:20:50

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Yeah, yeah.

    • 01:20:52

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Because the people who are doing reallybad things aren't necessarily governed by those theoriesthese days.

    • 01:20:59

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: [CHUCKLES]

    • 01:20:59

      RONALD V. CLARKE: You know?

    • 01:21:00

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Yes.

    • 01:21:01

      RONALD V. CLARKE: And some of these really bad thingsthat we've really got to try to cope with, you know?What is it?The stuff that's going around the Horn of Africa, the piracy.

    • 01:21:16

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Yeah.

    • 01:21:18

      RONALD V. CLARKE: I mean, that is-- it'sactually getting under control, but through situationalmeasures, certainly.But it would be useless, really, just looking at it in termsof our conventional theories.

    • 01:21:32

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Yeah, yeah.

    • 01:21:33

      RONALD V. CLARKE: And even worse when you get into the internet,I think.

    • 01:21:36

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: OK.

    • 01:21:38

      RONALD V. CLARKE: So I think we've reallygot to change our thinking.

    • 01:21:43

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: So in terms of extensions of situational crimeprevention, what do you see out therein terms of what needs to be further developed?One thing comes immediately to my mindis the issue of defining and measuring opportunity.

    • 01:22:00

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Yes, that's very difficult.

    • 01:22:03

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Yeah.Has there been headway on that?

    • 01:22:06

      RONALD V. CLARKE: I've avoided it, mostly.I've used operational definitions.

    • 01:22:10

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: We actually had a really cool articlethat you talked about using that as a baseline--

    • 01:22:16

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Yes.

    • 01:22:17

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: --in terms of measuring crime rates.

    • 01:22:19

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Yes, yes, yes.I agree that that would be nice to get peoplelooking at that in more depth.And I think it would be helpful.

    • 01:22:30

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Yeah.

    • 01:22:32

      RONALD V. CLARKE: It's again, that kind of theoretical workthat I avoid.

    • 01:22:37

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Yeah.

    • 01:22:38

      RONALD V. CLARKE: I mean, I know opportunity's important.I can see it when I meet it.

    • 01:22:42

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Right.

    • 01:22:43

      RONALD V. CLARKE: But I'm not verykeen in teasing it all out.

    • 01:22:46

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Yeah.

    • 01:22:47

      RONALD V. CLARKE: But I think people ought to, yes.

    • 01:22:49

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: OK.

    • 01:22:50

      RONALD V. CLARKE: I think that that would be very important.My sort of feeling is that we have--I don't know how many people go to the ASC, maybe 3,500?Is it something like that?

    • 01:23:03

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: That sounds about right.

    • 01:23:04

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Yeah.And we've got 60 people going to ECCA.We need-- you horrific--

    • 01:23:11

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Converts.

    • 01:23:12

      RONALD V. CLARKE: We need a few moreof them doing ECCA work if we're going to make progress.

    • 01:23:16

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: All right.

    • 01:23:16

      RONALD V. CLARKE: That's what I feel.

    • 01:23:18

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: OK.

    • 01:23:19

      RONALD V. CLARKE: And I'm speaking for all of them,I'm not just myself.

    • 01:23:24

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Are there any other developmentsthat are kind of urgent at this point, in terms of--

    • 01:23:30

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Well yes, I think environmental crime'svery important.

    • 01:23:34

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: OK.

    • 01:23:34

      RONALD V. CLARKE: And we should be doing a lot more on that.I mean, as you know, I'm doing this wildlife stuff.That's just one small portion of environmental crime.

    • 01:23:42

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: OK.

    • 01:23:44

      RONALD V. CLARKE: And we've been finding--we've published a lot of studies now,the group that I work with on this in wildlife crime,that the environmental criminology concepts workvery well with wildlife crime.We haven't managed to reduce any yet,but we're still thinking about what

    • 01:24:07

      RONALD V. CLARKE [continued]: you could do to cut poaching and cut the illegal trade in tigersand ivory and all that stuff.But it does fit.The ideas fit.

    • 01:24:19

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: So there are a couple of principles that--

    • 01:24:21

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Yes, the principles generallyfit pretty well.

    • 01:24:24

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: OK.

    • 01:24:27

      RONALD V. CLARKE: And there's lotsof concepts that are very useful when you look at problemslike that, which are a little bit different from the onesthat criminology's mostly been dealing with.And anyway, it's so much more interesting.We should get out there more, this crimein every aspect of our life-- every aspect.

    • 01:24:50

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: Yeah, yeah.

    • 01:24:52

      RONALD V. CLARKE: And we should be trying to deal with it,or understanding it rather than all the time worryingabout deprived neighborhoods and ghettos.Those are all bad things.

    • 01:25:06

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: I suppose that thatmight be part of the reluctance or maybeeven the fear of reconceptualizingour approach there, is that it'd be a death by 1,000 cuts here.The preference would be for the more generalizable, I suppose.Because the idea being that you can apply this nearly anywhere.They're all the same.

    • 01:25:29

      BRENDAN DOOLEY [continued]: That might be sort of like an issue therein terms of the generational knowledgeand things of that nature there.

    • 01:25:35

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Possibility.It sounds a bit abstract to me, then.[LAUGHTER]

    • 01:25:42

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: So anyhoo, are there any parting thoughtshere, or anything that maybe I failed to ask that you'd--

    • 01:25:49

      RONALD V. CLARKE: No, I think you'vemanaged to make me more indiscreet than Ishould have been.[LAUGHTER]

    • 01:25:57

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: That's the sign of a great interviewer.

    • 01:25:60

      RONALD V. CLARKE: Part of your aim, I guess.I think I've given a general idea of what my [INAUDIBLE]all about.

    • 01:26:08

      BRENDAN DOOLEY: All right.Well, I suppose at this point we will thank you for your timehere.We learned an awful lot, and look forwardto sharing this with other folks who are alsoeager to learn about aspects of situational crime preventionas seen through the eyes of Ron Clark.[MUSIC PLAYING]

An Interview with Ronald Clarke

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Abstract

Dr. Ronald Clarke discusses the work he has done in of criminology and how he got into the field in the first place. Clarke has coauthored several works and is associated mostly with his research on situational crime prevention. Clarke discusses randomized control trials, crime statistics. and environmental criminology.

An Interview with Ronald Clarke

Dr. Ronald Clarke discusses the work he has done in of criminology and how he got into the field in the first place. Clarke has coauthored several works and is associated mostly with his research on situational crime prevention. Clarke discusses randomized control trials, crime statistics. and environmental criminology.

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