# An Interview with Roland Chilton

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• 00:00

WENONA RYMOND-RICHMOND: Hi.My name is Wenona Rymond-Richmond,and I'm honored to be here with Roland Chiltonto do an interview with the Oral History Project.We're at the American Society of Criminology meetingin 2003 in Atlanta.And just a little bit of background about Roland.

• 00:21

WENONA RYMOND-RICHMOND [continued]: Roland is a former president of the AmericanSociety of Criminology.He also was a staff of the President's Commission on LawEnforcement and Administration of Justice,and he taught at the University of Massachusetts Amherstfor 40 years.

• 00:43

WENONA RYMOND-RICHMOND [continued]: Hi, Roland.How are you doing?

• 00:44

ROLAND CHILTON: Good.Good.Thank you.

• 00:46

WENONA RYMOND-RICHMOND: Can you tell mea little bit about how you became a criminologist?

• 00:52

ROLAND CHILTON: Yes.I think the best way to describe it is that itwas a series of lucky breaks.And I'm going to try to remember as many as I can.But I want to start with one.Having lived through the 20th century,one of the luckiest breaks was being born a white male.And that said, putting that aside, the next really lucky

• 01:14

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: break was being born and growing up in the city of Chicago.I mean, there are all kinds of things thatcould said about why Chicago.They say it's a great place to live,even as a poor kid, the lake, the museums, the parks,the schools-- there was just so many good thingsin living there, even during the Great Depression.

• 01:36

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: Because I was a child of the Great Depression.My father came to Chicago in the '20s to help build the cityand there was a tremendous growththat came up from Missouri.But I was born just a month before-- or just a monthafter the Crash.And so we lived through the Great Depression, in which

• 01:58

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: he was unemployed a great deal.But even under those circumstances,it was a great place to be.And there's another aspect to this,and I'm going to have to get to the second pointto soften this-- one of the thingsabout growing up in Chicago is to become,I'll say skeptical, very skeptical.

• 02:18

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: It sometimes borders on cynicism.In fact, I think when I run into cynical people,I figure I can out-cynical them.It is a sense that everybody's on the make, everybody'shustling, everybody's trying to make a fix of some kind.So you have that sense, and you can't, Idon't think, really grow up in the city

• 02:40

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: and have the experiences that a lot of poor kidshave without realizing that.But that said, there are a lot of very decent people,and there are a lot of very altruistic peoplethat come into the city to do good.and I don't know if people know that.Maybe it doesn't happen anymore, but I

• 03:01

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: want to get to that point-- but to go to get to that pointto talk about those people I haveto talk about the family moving around, that is.My sister, Julie, interviewed my mother at one point and said--and my mother said, oh, yeah, for the first 21 years

• 03:22

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: of my married life, we moved 18 times.Now this is the Great Depression,and a lot of those moves, they put the furnitureon the street.And this sounds-- you know, my wife hates itwhen I talk about this because it soundslike I'm, kind of, pouring it, or outpouring people,but I'm sure it must have been hard for my parents,

• 03:42

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: but for us it was a lot of fun.I mean, you come home, and this stuff's on the street,and you say, hey, we're going to move again.So we lived-- the glib answer to that question, the short answerto that question, how did I become a criminologist-- Iusually say to people when they say that, I say, well I grew upon the west side of Chicago.And that seems to satisfy them.It makes sense or something.

• 04:03

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: But the truth is we lived all over Chicago.And we lived on the north side, welived on the west side near-- almost every house Ilived in has been torn down, but for good reason.I mean, when they built-- when they expanded the Chicagocircle campus and built the hospitals,and so-and-so, the Hermitage Street house was probably gone.We lived on the south side right up to the beginning of the war.

• 04:27

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: And when I say when the war, people my age,we mean World War II.Now we've had a whole bunch of wars-- wars against poverty,wars against drugs, wars against terror-- I mean,these are all, kind of, odd wars to those of uswho remembered World Ware II.And so the point was, we then moved

• 04:50

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: to the near northwest side, and this was a big breakbecause we were two doors down from the Erie neighborhoodhouse.And Erie Neighborhood House-- thereare a whole set of settlement housesthat were set up in Chicago and the most famous oneis Hull House, of course, and everybody knows that.But not too far north and west of

• 05:11

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: us was Northwestern settlement house.And just west of us almost on Erie Street,or maybe on Erie Street, was Emerson House.And south and east of us there was the Chicago Commonswhich was the University of Chicago's settlement house.But in the middle of that, it was Erie Neighborhood House.And it was founded by a woman, Florencetown,

• 05:34

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: who-- I think there was almost no other name for it.She was a saint.I mean, she could hustle money outside the city.to build this-- this thing, and bring people into help people that lived there.Living next to Erie, and then we moved a couple times,but just once to go a little farther from Erie and then back

• 05:55

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: right next door to Erie.In all that time, there were people therethat were, as I say, very altruistic people.I don't think they made a lot of money.Surely they didn't make a lot of money.Some of them were volunteers, and their ideawas to help the neighbors.This is Florencetown [INAUDIBLE].We used to call her Miss Florence.

• 06:16

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: She has this fairly high-pitched voice,a great head of white hair.Anyway, she hired some really good people.One person they hired-- one of the thingsthat these are all religiously-oriented people.You understand that.So they came in-- they came in to preach the gospel.They came in to save souls.

• 06:36

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: I think they saved all of our lives.Or maybe in the process, I don't know.So anyhow they were religiously-oriented people,so when she built the neighborhood house, partof the neighborhood house, almost a separate structure,was the Erie Chapel Presbyterian Church.They weren't always able to get Presbyterian ministers thatwant to work there, I guess, and so they

• 06:58

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: had the kind of pulpit supply.But one of the people they brought inwas a man named Doug Cedarleaf.And he came from Rockford, Illinois.And he was the Minister of the church,but he's also, for a while, the youth leader.So we would meet every Sunday nightand talk about a whole host of things,but-- what those meetings were, and Ididn't realize until I got to Wisconsin and Indiana,

• 07:20

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: those were seminars.And he would take a topic, and he would really probe it.And we would talk about it.And one of my friends said, oh I hate these meetings,I can't sleep afterwards.And I said, maybe that's the point.He wants us to think about these things.So Doug Cedarleaf really set our feet in the right direction.But it doesn't mean we always went that way.

• 07:45

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: You know, the chronological literature about the-- in fact,some of the best of it, I think guessI'll get to it in the next step, Al Cohentries to describe this kind of tension between kidswho are not equipped to impress middle-class people,and middle-class people are trying their best to get theminto the mainstream.That is attention and almost resentment sometimes.

• 08:08

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: Not just Cedarleaf, but there with a man namedTed Bruce said to me one day he saidhave you thought about college.And I said, what are you talking about?Poor boys don't go to college.And he said, well think about it.So we left it at that.And then another guy came in who was a seminarian.He was at Union Theological Seminary in Chicago,but he was-- he either volunteered his time

• 08:29

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: or part-time.I never thought about none of these as being paid people.It just seemed to me they were there, you know.a fellow named Jack Uri-- he'd gone to Monmouth College.So at the time, when I did start to think about college,it was just a fluke because I had gone to this assembly where

• 08:49

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: various people from various collegeswould talk to the people who are graduating from Cranetechnical high school and it's like kindof went because then you got out of class or somethingand sitting there and there were priests getting upand they were talking about how much how much it costsand what it takes to get in.And the guy from the Chicago City Junior Colleges

• 09:11

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: said, all you need is $10 and a high-school diploma.OK, that sounds better than going to work.Let's do it.I mean, I did go to work, because I always hadpart-time jobs in high school.One of the great breaks of the war-- for kidswho were, say, 14 or 15-- is it took so many people out, • 09:33 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: took them to other countries-- that there were jobs.You could get a job almost anywhere.So I always had my own spending money.And always, always worked.But I wasn't eager to do those things full time,at that point.I don't know why.Anyway, I was interested in school.And my junior college was very good,because there were a couple of people • 09:55 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: that really impressed me.One was name [INAUDIBLE], and the other Weinberg.I can't remember the first names.They wrote a book together, and they taught the social sciencesurveys at [INAUDIBLE].In fact, they were graduate studentsat University of Chicago, and they just stole the curriculum.And they just took the content, and they gave it to us,and it was great. • 10:15 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: So but after finishing, right, the questionwas where to go the next two years.And since growing up in Chicago, youthink you'd never leave-- you don'tthink about leaving Chicago.That doesn't cross your mind.So I thinking, maybe I'll go to Roosevelt College [INAUDIBLE].But Jack Ury said, no.You should go to Monmouth College.It's a little school in Western Illinois. • 10:35 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: And he actually paved the way.So when I got there, I had jobs-- a job washing dishes.And I worked in the library, mopping the floor.I had a great job in the courthouse,where we lived in the jail.And this had nothing do with criminology,but it was a cell off of the sheriff's home. • 10:56 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: But it was part of the jail, they just didn't lock the door.And then we kind of [INAUDIBLE].I'm digressing here.The point was I got to Monmouth.I got the degree.So that connection with Erie was a real break-- obviously,a big break in my life.And the fact that the people of the City of Chicagowere willing to pay taxes for a school system that • 11:19 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: would provide us with an education in the midstof the depression-- that we'd go through junior college--it was a tremendous help.And then, of course, [INAUDIBLE].The people at Monmouth-- I think that they reallywanted to help too.But I'm sure it was Jack Ury and his contact with Sam Thompson,who was a professor of philosophy-- • 11:40 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: and so I was a philosophy major at Monmouth.And this will get me to the pointwhere I'll stop and see if I said something to confuse you. • 11:49 WENONA RYMOND-RICHMOND: No, no, excellent.Can you tell me more about [INAUDIBLE] to continue to goto graduate school, after your bachelor's. • 11:57 ROLAND CHILTON: Oh, that's another set of lucky breaks.The one that-- when I finished Monmouth,I had been deferred, because there wasa draft with the Korean War.And I had been deferred, but as soon as I finished college,then I was drafted.But that was a lucky break. • 12:19 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: It may not sound like much of a lucky break,but I was actually allocated to the United States Marine Corps.And that might not sound like a lucky break,but going through boot training, itwas just such a transformation-- just sent to San Diego.And you get out, and the sun's shining,and there are palm trees.It was just-- oh, there is something other than Chicago. • 12:40 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: You know?But the organization of the thingwas so well-organized and so well-run thateven though-- it might have been because of Doug Cedarleaf'sinfluence.I'm a kind of pacifist, but I'm nota really courageous pacifist.But I'd rather be drafted than go to prison, I guess. • 13:00 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: So I-- but that organization was so straightforward.I mean, they were really clear about what your job was.It wasn't to get killed.It was to kill people.And so they trained you to do that,and it was a tremendous confidence builder.And so I decided at one point-- well, part of the lucky break • 13:22 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: was being assigned, after boot camp,not to the advanced infantry training,but to San Francisco, California--to the Marine Corps-- you're familiar with the area? • 13:31 WENONA RYMOND RICHMOND: Absolutely. • 13:32 ROLAND CHILTON: But the Marine Corps supplydepot on 100 Harrison Street, in downtown San Francisco--now, the duty wasn't very good-- standingin the middle of the night, guarding a supply depot,staring up at the Bay Bridge.You know, it was kind of boring.But the liberty was great, because you'dgo up to the top of Nob Hill, and there'dbe a serviceman center at the bottom of the Fairmont. • 13:54 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: And they'd give you free tickets to movies and plays,and you'd meet people, especially young women,which was nice.So at any rate, it was just a tremendous break.But I decided that it was kind of boring.The duty was kind of boring, and that I should--since I had the degree from Monmouth, • 14:16 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: I was eligible to put in for officer candidate trainingcourse.So I put in for the course, and then Iwent through the [INAUDIBLE] course at Quanticoand got commissioned.And then I never went to Korea, so this is why I say-- • 14:30 WENONA RYMOND-RICHMOND: Another lucky break. • 14:32 ROLAND CHILTON: Another lucky break--it was just a tremendous education.It really was.The boot camp education was reallyworked on fitness, and mentality,and to convince you that there are things you could do youdidn't know you could do.And actually, when you're finished,you think there's nothing you can't do.So it was a really-- that was a kind of education. • 14:54 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: But talking about people who want to make you middle class.The Marine Corps made you middle class by giving you more money,and by explicit training that-- thingslike when you go to the colonel's house,you should have some little cards printedand leave a little card in the silver tray. • 15:15 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: And it would have been even-- if it hadn't been war time,it would have been even more trainingfor being middle class.Because with the war time, they took out the horsemanshipand ballroom dancing.But we were able to do without that.And so anyway, but the big thing was-- to get to the point--how did I get to graduate school-- well, • 15:38 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: the big thing was, I was aboard ship once,and people kept calling me Bill.And I thought, who's this guy Bill?So I looked him up.And it turned out, it's a fellow named Bill Benson.And he didn't think he looked anything like me.But I thought, well, there must be some similarityor resemblance.But anyway, we talked. • 15:58 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: We got to be friends.So when I told him I was going to go to graduate school,or I was thinking about graduate schoolafter I got out of the Marine Corps,he said, well, if you're going to go to graduate school,go to the University of Wisconsin.He was from Wisconsin.And then, even better, he said, there'sa summer conference [INAUDIBLE] summer camp on Lake Geneva. • 16:18 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: Since you're getting out early, you could work there.You go up to Madison. • 16:22 WENONA RYMOND-RICHMOND: Sounds great, yeah. • 16:23 ROLAND CHILTON: It was wonderful because at that conferenceground, the staff were all college students.And it was-- 2/3 of them were women.And that's where I met Elizabeth Seamon.And that was a really big break, because that-- it's • 16:44 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: no exaggeration to say, if I talkabout the people that helped me, Igot more help from Elizabeth Seamon Chiltonthan any other living person. • 16:52 WENONA RYMOND-RICHMOND: And how many yearshave you and Elizabeth been married? • 16:54 ROLAND CHILTON: Well, it's going to be--we have to wait until 2016 for it to be 60 years.So, but that came out of being drafted and meetingsomebody who sent me in the right direction.But you know, I really didn't know what I wanted to do.I thought-- I had some-- well, I was exposed • 17:15 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: to all these social workers.We called them social workers.They were the people of Erie.They weren't trained social workers.I probably would-- [INAUDIBLE] trained social workers,I might not have been so depressed.But these were people that wanted to help people.And so I said-- I thought I should gointo something that does that.And I thought maybe being a correctional administratorwould be the way to help people. • 17:37 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: It sounds a little odd.I don't know what I was thinking about.But at any rate, the fact is, the Wisconsinhad a joint program in corrections and sociology.It was run by sociology and the school of social work.And so I joined that program.And so then I was taking-- I didn't • 17:58 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: have an undergraduate major in sociology,so I had to take additional courses.Oh, I forgot the main thing-- the really big breakabout going into the Marine Corps.I got the GI Bill when I finished.And it was like a World War II type GIBill, where you get books, and a monthly stipend, • 18:18 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: and they paid a tuition, and you got to go wherever you want.And so that's how I could actually afford [INAUDIBLE].I really think what you really need to becomemiddle class is some money.And since the GI bill provided the money, • 18:39 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: you could get the education.So now, that didn't make me the greatest scholar.But I'll get to that in a minute.I wasn't really applying myself in some ways, you can imagine.Have you ever been on the campus,to the University of Wisconsin? • 18:54 WENONA RYMOND-RICHMOND: I have. • 18:55 ROLAND CHILTON: Can you imagine suddenlyfinding yourself there and thinking,what a wonderful place?I went from [INAUDIBLE]. • 19:02 WENONA RYMOND RICHMOND: Yeah, it's beautiful. • 19:03 ROLAND CHILTON: Yeah, beautiful campus.And so it's kind of hard to apply yourself. • 19:07 WENONA RYMOND RICHMOND: Distracted by other-- • 19:09 ROLAND CHILTON: Yeah, distracted by other things.I didn't even-- after I got married,it still was just a lot of fun.And so with the GI Bill, I could get a degree.And that's-- I mean, to become a criminologist,you need the education.And to get the education, you need the money.So anyways, obviously we'll talk about it later, • 19:30 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: but one of my lifetime interests has been in social class,because-- but I'm not-- I had a colleague.He was so fixated on it.But he really-- he was so determinedto be middle class that it preyed on him.You know?It was like it was something he really was concerned about. • 19:50 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: And I don't think I'm really concerned about it,but I think studying it from a distance can-- • 19:54 WENONA RYMOND-RICHMOND: Yeah, I can definitelysee the connection between your upbringingin Chicago and the Erie House and then the militaryand the structure it provided, and some of the middle-classvalues. • 20:08 ROLAND CHILTON: The middle-class values--and this is-- I guess when I got to Wisconsin-- maybeI should quickly move ahead, because once I got to Wisconsinand started taking courses with Marshall Clinardand on the corrections side was a guy named Mike Hakeem.And I really liked Mike Hakeem because he was reallya down-to-earth guy. • 20:28 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: And he set up a-- I don't know whatit was supposed to be-- a data collectionoperation or an internship.But he set up-- like I said, I guessit'd be an internship-- at the federal reformatoryin Chillicothe, Ohio.And that experience with the treatment staff • 20:49 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: and their cyncism-- I was talking about growing upin Chicago, you become cynical.But their view of the prisoners was so low.And I thought, well, how could I go into work like this?Because I would soon become as hardened and to believethat the prisoners were all con artists, and they're lying,and you can't trust them, and you can't do anything. • 21:10 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: And I thought, no.But in addition to that, they gotme a teaching assistantship.And I realized that I was really enjoying talking to these kids,and they were going to pay me for it.So that was a-- it kind of changed the course.And so instead of staying in the correctionsprogram or the social work, I switched over to sociology, • 21:33 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: to become a sociology-- a criminology-- well,basically a sociology major with an interestin crime, because of the impact of Marshall Clinard.But Mike Hakeem directed my master's thesis.And I must have drove him crazy, because Ikept spelling offense, like with an S instead • 21:54 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: of a C or something.It was just-- there were just certain bat habitsI'd picked up growing up.And we didn't have the personal computers that correctyour spelling as you go.But anyhow, the other thing about about Hakeemis that he used to say, look out for these 100 percenters-- • 22:18 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: these people who grab you by the lapeland tell you they have the answer to crime.And that was really helpful advice,because there were so many of them.And they're not all in business.Well, they're in business, but they're not-- some of themwere in criminology.They want to-- so you put that with the skepticismthat I had to begin with, and I think it was healthy. • 22:39 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: It was good, because then while I was impressedwith the theory I was reading, with Clinard, especially,I still had in the back of my mind--the notion is, can you test this?Can you use your senses, or some extension of your senses,to see it?Can you really trust it? • 22:60 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: So at any rate, that was the other important thingat Wisconsin, was when I gathered the data downat the reformatory, and came back to campus,Mike Hakeem said, well, you'd better go to Bob McGuinness.He'll tell you what to do with it.[CHUCKLES] How to do it. • 23:20 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: And we had statistics classes, but-- and Ithought they were interesting-- but Icouldn't see what they had to do with sociology.But McGuinness-- he said, well, what's the theory,or what's the hypothesis?What are you looking for?And I said, well, I don't know.I said I had some rough idea about auto thieves, • 23:41 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: and so I was going to talk to auto thieves.And I did talk to auto thieves, but my ideathat they'd be interested in cars and driving and stuffwas just shot when I met the kid thatwas one of five kids who jumped into a carand drove it across the bridge from Indiana to Kentucky.And they became federal offenders-- six monthsto six years.And so he didn't-- he couldn't even drive. • 24:03 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: So there were other auto thieves I talkedto [INAUDIBLE] professional.But anyway, it was a useful experienceto go to Chillicothe.And Mike Hakeem said, keep your nose clean.He'd worked in a prison.He had very little use for prison psychiatrists.He thought they did more harm than good, I think.He'd written about it. • 24:23 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: At any rate, when I got to talk to McGuinness.McGuinness said, wait a minute.You're supposed to have some idea,and not just go to gather data.So I picked up bits of an idea that had to do-- well,I was interested in whether people specialize in crime,and so on.And it wasn't an earth-shaking finding,that they don't specialize. • 24:45 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: But in the process, he introduced meto the automatic data processing tool,by teaching me how to use what was then a big deal.This device-- it was before computers,but Wisconsin had a computer.But we didn't deal with that, at that point.And we ran the statistical sorter, and the old [INAUDIBLE]electrical calculators to do the chi squares and stuff. • 25:07 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: So I did the master's thesis, and then decidedthat it would probably be good to move on,to go someplace else, even though Clinard reallyurged me to stay on, but wouldn't guarantee support.So I wrote about three places, and got a nice letter • 25:29 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: from UCLA.And because Don Cressey had been a visiting professorat Wisconsin, so I had met Cressey,a smart, entertaining guy.So I wrote him and asked him about joining their programat UCLA.And I got back a really nice letter-- long, detailed letterabout the program.But I kept looking, and there was no mention of money. • 25:52 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: So I got a nice, a less-lengthy letter from Indiana,with the money.But going to Indiana was another bit break.It was really an enormous big break,and I want to focus on-- before Iget lost-- I want to focus on two parts of it.One was the law school, and [INAUDIBLE] minor in law. • 26:18 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: But you had to take an outside minor in something,outside of sociology.So you could take 15 hours in law school.And I'd already been exposed to Jerome Hallby Clinard who had introduced me to Hall's book Theft,Law, and Society.So the law school was a big influence.The other was that I got an assistantship in the computer • 26:40 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: center.And that has to rank right up there with some of the biggestbreaks, because obviously I learned to actually programthe computer.And that-- I think it's fair to say that without the computer,I could have done almost none of the things--not that it's all a question of time-- • 27:01 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: but I mean none of the things I didwould have been possible without the computer.So that assistantship was a tremendous--and so going to Indiana-- making the change to Indiana--because also, Indiana was a place where Sutherlandhad moved, from the University of Chicago,and set up a tremendous criminology program.And Karl Schuessler was still there. • 27:21 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: Al Cohen was still there.Linda Smith was still there.They had a group of criminologists at Indiana,and then they had Jerome Hall in the law school.And then I had the computer, so it was ideal.It was a wonderful break, just to go there.And I had no idea that that's what it would be.I guess I knew, of course, that Hall was there. • 27:43 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: And I knew Cohen was there, and Cohen's theorywas very appealing.I'd read it at Wisconsin, and Clinardhad talked about it, when it was actually Cohen's dissertationat Harvard.And then by the time-- before we even left Wisconsin, • 28:06 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: it had come out as a book.And I really liked it, because he had this idea in there thatsaid that lower-class kids-- and he was very explicit about whathe was doing.He was going to talk about lower-class male [INAUDIBLE]delinquency.He didn't pretend to be talking about crime in general. • 28:28 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: And he suggested, of course, that the problems start whenlower-class kids run into middle-class people,and middle-class people want them to change, which is-- • 28:42 WENONA RYMOND-RICHMOND: What you had experienced [INAUDIBLE]. • 28:44 ROLAND CHILTON: Yeah, I'd lived through that,and I knew the tension.I knew the tension that it could cause,and that basically-- but his idea wasthat-- he brought in some slight psychiatric notionI'm not sure I agree with.But certainly, what he describes-- that tension, • 29:05 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: that these lower-class kids are not really preparedto provide-- to earn the respect of middle-class people,because they just don't have the kind of behavior.They're not quiet, neat, clean, [INAUDIBLE]middle-class things.So that kind of impressed me.And so it was fun to actually study with Al Cohen. • 29:30 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: And Linda Smith was another one thathad tremendous impact, because Lindy had--he'd focused on drug addiction.But he then ran into the Bureau of Narcoticsand Dangerous Drugs and their philosophythat the solution to the problem is to lock up addicts. • 29:53 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: And Linda Smith felt that it was a medical problem,and that they didn't need to be locked up.So his confrontation and his work on the drug addiction,and legal and medical approaches to drug addiction,had an impact.I really realized the folly of the drug war, • 30:14 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: almost before it started.And so I'll come back to that, because that's-- • 30:19 WENONA RYMOND-RICHMOND: That's a stream throughout your work. • 30:21 ROLAND CHILTON: That what? • 30:22 WENONA RYMOND-RICHMOND: Because that's one of the streamsor topics in your work in connection-- • 30:25 ROLAND CHILTON: Yeah, and I wish it were a bigger stream.I mean, I wish I'd really concentrated and talkedabout the drug war at different points.And I'll get to that when I get to the current clinician staff.But I don't know if I've touched on everybody that Iwant to make sure I mention at Indiana, because at Wisconsin, • 30:45 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: even, it was Lyle Shannon in delinquency,and I'd mention Bob McGuinness.Frank Hartung came.And what was impressive about Frank Hartung washe came from Wayne State to fill in for Clinard.And so I was his teaching assistant, rather thanClinard's that year.And I was so impressed with the guy,because he explained how he got into the field. • 31:07 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: He said he was riding the rails out west,and he went into this library to get out of the heat,and he started reading, and he got interested.And that was it.I thought, yeah, I like this guy.And he had very frank language too, which I could understand.Not that I encourage people to talk that way, but you know, • 31:31 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: he made himself clear.And so I like Frank.And then the-- and again, Hans Gerth.I have to mention Hans Gerth because Hans Gerth hadlived through two countries and through two wars.And he just-- tremendous insights,to hear him lecture-- but one of the things I remember most,he said, you can't just read books. • 31:53 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: You got to fight with books.Yeah, and I thought, yeah.That's right.You just can't take it and consume it, right?Mark it up, put questions in there.And so Gerth was good.But at Indiana, of course, one of the biggest influenceswas Karl Schuessler, who directed my dissertation.In fact, I think Jim Short was one of the reviewers. • 32:18 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: And I think if he's told me once,he's told me several times that when he was reviewing it,he thought it was written by Karl Schuessler.And I thought, well, that's understandable.That makes sense.You know?But the other thing is, it's hard to say enoughabout the impact of Jerome Hall, because Hall, he really-- he • 32:42 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: taught criminal law, the theory of criminal law.He also taught jurisprudence, or philosophy of law courses.And he had this idea that any study of law worth its saltwas a fusion of theory and practical value.And that's what so many criminologists miss-- • 33:03 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: that it's a fusion of those things,and you can't just focus on the values.You can't just focus on the theory.You've got to put those things together.And that's really what I've tried to do,I think, in every piece.Sometimes the values don't come through strong enough,and sometimes they come through too strongly.But the point is, I was really impressed by that. • 33:26 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: And then there were other people at Indianathat I learned a great deal from.And of course, in an indirect way,[INAUDIBLE] teaching assistant to Linda Smith.And he would bring in addicts to talk to the students.And sometimes-- one time I rememberthat the student said to the addict,well, if you could use it again, would you? • 33:48 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: Because they're released from prison, and their conditionis that they don't touch opiates.And the guy said, oh, yeah.If God made anything better, I don't know what it is.And I thought, that was enlightening.There was a reason people use drugs,and it had little to do with the criminal law. • 34:09 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: Well, I mean, he was probably-- Idon't know if he ended up back in prison or not.But you know it was a very compelling habit, and soanyway.Linda Smith's attempt to make the system more humane-- Ithink it was admirable.But if you were up against what became the Drug EnforcementAdministration, and was then the Bureau of Narcotics • 34:30 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: and Dangerous Drugs, and you're some college professor,the chances of making a big difference are very small.But the fact that he made the effort-- I reallyappreciate it.And I don't think I've lived up to that model,but I would like to.So let me just mention a couple of other people. • 34:54 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: Mel deFlor and Frank [INAUDIBLE],teaching the methods courses.In some ways, I've learned from them,because they were kind of negative exampleson occasion, because I think they, in some ways--I don't know.I shouldn't talk about both of them in the same breath.But I think there were occasions when Mel deFlor would present • 35:14 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: some idea he had for a project, and I would think,he's not taking into account the ethical aspects of this,or the lack of ethics of this kind of research.And so that was the values that Hall brought with him.And then there was-- the other person I wanted to mentionis Bill Chambliss.We were graduate students together. • 35:36 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: And Bill and Don Cressey, and I always block out his namebecause I see Ray Jeffery, and I alltook the outside minor in law.And we all studied with Jerome Hall.And we all came away with very different ideas.I think the ideas we went in with we kind of came out with, • 35:56 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: I guess.I don't know.It's hard to explain. • 35:59 WENONA RYMOND-RICHMOND: And you continued to have a friendshipand to co-author things with [INAUDIBLE]. • 36:05 ROLAND CHILTON: With Bill-- well, for years,I wanted to write something with Bill.And then about 15 years ago, we presented a paperin San Francisco, at the social problems meeting.And it kind of died, and then we bring it back to life.And we've worked on it for about 15 years.And I think we're at the point where it might actuallyget published, but I won't be sure about that. • 36:26 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: But that would be nice, because I wouldlike to have a paper with Bill.Let me stop there.I guess you've already asked some questions.But before I go into the Florida State, whichis-- going to Florida State was also a big break.But have I said something that's confusing or-- • 36:45 WENONA RYMOND-RICHMOND: No, perfect, perfect-- and thenwas it when you were on sabbatical,or-- what led you, then, to Florida State, [INAUDIBLE]? • 36:56 ROLAND CHILTON: Oh, it was my first job.I actually thought, when I was a graduate student,that I would go out and enjoy genteel povertyat some small college.I didn't really expect to make a lot of money.But the computer experience put me in a category for people • 37:19 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: at Florida State, as somebody that would beappropriate in their methods.And of course, the methods I learned from Westy and deFlor,which was very helpful, to go to Florida State as a methods,and statistics, and computing.And I think the computer experience really helped,because almost everything I did, I did work with the machines. • 37:41 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: But I did run into people-- many of the graduate students said,oh, poor Chilton.He's been captured by the machines.And that's what they felt about it.And then they said, well, when I get out,I'll pay people to write programs.But I got to Florida State, therewere people who had come out of Michigan • 38:01 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: State and other places.And they had maybe had that same notion-- that they wouldpay somebody or something.At any rate, they would come to me and say,will you help me write a program?And I'd say, well, I'll help you learn to program.But I'm not going to write your programs for you.And so I was always looking over my back,I think, as soon as people figure outwhat this stuff will for you, they'reall going to be doing it. • 38:23 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: So anyway, I did have a lot of advantages.Going to Florida State was my first job,and so I was surprised at how much they were paying me,and then that they kept raising my salary.And it turned out that the whole field was going up.Everything was increasing.And when they hired somebody, they'd hire them at higher pay. • 38:45 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: And then they had the decency to raise my pay to the personthey'd just hired.So it's like, this is pretty neat.So the director-- I actually was in sociology.But [INAUDIBLE] was called the Institute for Social Research.And Charles Briggs, headed that institute.And we had a slightly lower teaching load, • 39:06 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: and then we were obviously supposedto be engaged in research.It was an institute for social research.But his approach was so relaxed that hewould come with something that we might put in for,and he'd say, are you interested in this?And I'd look at it-- I'd say, no.And then [INAUDIBLE] forget about it.And so, but in the process, [INAUDIBLE]some really interesting research projects. • 39:29 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: And one was studying Florida Suitable HomeLaw And I don't want to go into it, but the gist of itwas that the legislature had worked outa way to remove poor black women from the welfare roles.And they were calling it a suitable home law.And so combining theory, fact, and value, • 39:53 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: I tried to do a very thorough, factual studyof the consequences of that law.And I did conclude that what it didwas make life harder for the poorest people in Florida.And to say that-- and I think I onlygot it published because the Journal of Criminal Lawand Criminology is a student-edited-- it's a law • 40:15 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: journal that students edit.And so I'm not sure if mainstream criminology, eventhen, would have published that thing, where the values that itinvolved are so clear.It was so obvious that this was wrong.And the article said that, so it'snot one of the most frequently-cited articles, • 40:38 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: but it's one of my favorites.But the other thing-- one of the people working on thatwas Lewis Killian.And I'm going to say later that-- Idon't want to get any regrets I had,that I didn't work more with Killian on that project.But I also was there during the '60s, • 41:02 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: and so it was the deep south.Tallahassee is just 15 to 18 miles from South Georgia.And so the civil rights movement was going on.The anti-war movement was going on.It was a very exciting time to be in Tallahassee.And we actually had great expectations. • 41:22 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: We thought things were going to change.And I think to a certain extent they did,and then we're getting the backlash,and I don't know what it would be like.But I liked the physical part of Tallahassee,because it's really a beautiful city.But the political and social climate-- • 41:43 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: and actually, nobody in my familyliked the physical climate.I'd come out of the library, and that warm, moist air wouldhit me, and I'd feel good.And everybody in my family hated it,because it's warm and humid so much of the year.And so the next big break was taking a year off • 42:07 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: in the middle of that stretch.I was at Florida State from 1962 to '70.But in the middle of that, in 1966, I got a call from-- oh,this is blocking out [INAUDIBLE]. • 42:27 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: This is where I need the cheat sheet.But Lloyd Ohlin called and he said--I should go into how I met Lloyd Ohlin.The paper that came out of the thesis, whenI wrote-- the first paper that came out of that,I presented at an ASA meeting in Los Angeles. • 42:49 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: And Lloyd Ohlin was the chair at that session.And so I didn't think much of it at the time.I'd seen some of his work, in [INAUDIBLE] prediction tableand so on.And so like I said, [INAUDIBLE], but Ididn't recognize-- I didn't noticethat one of the other presenters [INAUDIBLE]. • 43:12 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: One of the other presenters was so good at his presentationthat he could read the paper and make it sound like he was justtalking to you.And so I'll come back to him later,because I'll remember his name.But it was very impressive.But the point was that through that contact-- [INAUDIBLE] • 43:36 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: people say, I hate meetings.Well, because I went to that meeting,and was on that session, and when Lloyd was looking aroundfor staff for the crime commission,he thought maybe I could be helpful.So he called and he said, would you like to come up for a year,to Washington, to work on the president's crime commission?And I said, would I ever.And so it was a really wonderful year, • 43:60 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: and I learned so much about outlining and organizing.We had outline meeting after outline meeting.And we'd go over how we were going to putthis assessment [INAUDIBLE].They didn't want to call it the sociology task force,and so they called it the assessment task force.And I still like that word.It's helpful. • 44:21 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: At any rate, we tried to think of everything that we couldthat might be involved in reducing crime.And one of the commissioners, when the thing was firsthanded in, said, you haven't said anything about religion,and she was right.In all these meetings that we'd talked about everything • 44:44 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: we should consider, and it didn't occur to any of usthat we should consider the role of religion.And actually, since then, I thinkshe was right in two different directions.I think we now see that religion causes a lot of violence,but it also probably prevents a lot of violence.And I don't know why I didn't thinkabout it, because all those people at Erie • 45:04 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: were religiously oriented.And so it was interesting, though,that we-- as social scientists-- had just missed religion.So at any rate, that was the big break--to be on the crime commission staffbecause Lloyd had-- somebody told them, involve everybody, • 45:26 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: or [INAUDIBLE] criticize the report.So you got to meet every well-known criminologist,practically, in the country, who came in and were involvedin some way as consultants on that.And at that point, I also got to meet Al Blumstein, whoyou know from [INAUDIBLE].But at that point, he came as a systems analyst • 45:51 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: and he wasn't a criminologist.He's become a distinguished criminologist.But at that point, he came and he gave a little lecture,which explained what systems analysis woulddo for the criminal justice system.And he had the example of printing operationand the inputs, and the throughputs, and the outputs.And so he really-- not alone, I'm sure, but really • 46:14 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: major figure in changing the way welooked at the administration of justice.He actually created, I think, a-- he and his colleaguesreally created the notion of a system of justice.This is maybe a digression, but Iwas familiar with the system analogy because of allthe sociologists that [INAUDIBLE] the social system, • 46:36 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: and tried to describe it in biological terms-- you know,the society lives and dies, and it depends on-- it's a system,and one piece has [INAUDIBLE] the other and so on.I'd been exposed to that kind of use of the analogy.But I hadn't thought of it as from an engineering aspect,where you could change pieces of the system • 46:59 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: and improve the throughput.But of course, the one thing the engineersdidn't bring with them was any set of values,and that maybe there are things we shouldn'tbe putting through the system.That was not-- and I think that-- we'll talk about itlater, but I think that one of the problems the field hastoday is that there are too many people • 47:19 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: improving a system that's, in many cases,the system needs to be changed-- not the throughput.But anyway, we can talk about that.Certainly, being on a commission was a big break.And it actually led to my going to Massachusetts,because Lloyd Ohlin must have given my name to a chair • 47:40 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: at the University of Massachusettsin Amherst, who called.And he actually came to Washington, and we talked.And eventually, I went up to visit and was offered a job.This was in '66.But I couldn't bring myself to gonorth at-- [INAUDIBLE] my job at the commission endedin January, and the thought of going north, • 48:00 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: rather than back to Tallahassee, was too much. • 48:03 WENONA RYMOND-RICHMOND: You were enjoying the weather there. • 48:04 ROLAND CHILTON: It was too much.I really couldn't do it.And that was about three years later,when things blew up at Florida State-- well,blew up kind of everywhere in the late '60s.Well, Penn State, the real disaster, but anyhow,I decided to leave Tallahassee and-- I fortunately • 48:26 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: don't remember his name, but the president at the time-- Ithought the behavior was shameful,to bring the Sheriff's posse and arresting.And actually, I lost a good book because I loaned itto a student from Australia who was deported because he wasa member of SDSS-- or SDS, what, you know-- • 48:47 WENONA RYMOND-RICHMOND: Students for a Democratic Society. • 48:49 ROLAND CHILTON: Students for a Democratic Society--so anyhow, I decided to go to [INAUDIBLE].But there were so many different waysthat Florida State was important, because theyhad a good computing center.And they kept getting better and better computing equipment.And we had a system where, finally, wehad professional operators. • 49:09 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: At Indiana, you had to go in the middleof the night on the machine yourself, the IBM 650.And that was OK, except sometimes somebody'sbroken a tape, or the card wouldn't work.And they all got professional, and you put the cardsthrough the window.And this is why I really understand gamblers. • 49:31 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: I mean I understand the motivation,because every time you put the cards through the windowand you get them back the next morning,and then finally [INAUDIBLE] you always figureyou got a winner-- that it's going to work this time.And then there's some little mistake, and you get it back,and you fix it.And you say now I'm going to-- this is really going to work.You see?And you get yourself involved in that sense. • 49:53 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: But they had, really, a good computing center.So it was helpful.Now, the next big break was going to the Universityof Massachusetts.Although actually, we really startedon how I got into criminology, and I thinkwe're into criminology now.You can see that-- but it was a series of breaks, of getting-- • 50:16 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: getting to Indiana was a break.Going to Florida State was a break.And then it turned out, going to Massachusetts was a big break.So I had a lot of help from a lot of people.And I know I'm forgetting a name.So I want to say this for anybody who helped methat I haven't named yet, that I would if I could remember, • 50:39 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: so they understand.Because I really-- at Florida-- did I get everybody at Florida?Well, on the crime commission staff,for example, I mentioned Blumstein.But there were a number of other peoplethat-- James Hornberg was the director.And again, that was kind of a negative experience in a way. • 51:03 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: He's the executive director, so I got to be friends with him.But at one point, I was going to give a paper down in Miami,on crime statistics and how to improve them.And it had to be cleared with the director,to send me down there.And he looked at it and he said, well,if anybody should give this paper, I should.I said, well, you want to go down? • 51:23 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: So but he said, OK.Go ahead.And then the paper, by the way, wasdescribed by one of the [INAUDIBLE]as what a lot of pious nonsense-- in proved crimestatistics-- pious nonsense.But you can see that theory, fact, and valuecome into the field in a variety of ways. • 51:44 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: But then Henry Ruth was assistant to [INAUDIBLE].And he was a very helpful, knowledgeable guy.Marty [INAUDIBLE] was another member of the assessment staff,and did very decent work-- was a very conscientious guy.Gene [INAUDIBLE] was the directorof the police task force.And I went to the-- they had an organized crime task force. • 52:05 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: And I went to the head of the organized crime task force.And I said, are you going to talk about organized crime?And he said, oh, I'm just going to take a broad-brush approach.So I went to Gene [INAUDIBLE] and I said,I don't think the organized crime people are goingto take up police corruption.Are you guys going to take it up?And Gene said, oh, Roland, do we have to talk about that? • 52:27 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: Everybody knows that's wrong.And here it's like, you could saythat about all kinds of crime.But at anyway, one of the people [INAUDIBLE]was a young lawyer named Jerry [INAUDIBLE].He and I actually shared an office a short period of time, • 52:48 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: because it was a great office.I liked it because it had a blackboard.He liked it because it had the flag.We both liked it because you looked out the window,you had a real picture of the capital.It was really the capital.It wasn't a the picture of the capital.It was the capital.So we were sitting in there one day,and somebody with a higher GS rankinglooked in, closed the door, and pretty soon we were reassigned. • 53:11 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: We lost it to somebody that thoughtthey deserved it better.But anyway, but Jerry [INAUDIBLE]the really serious part.What Jerry did was, he was asked to lookat public drunkenness as a crime, and what to do about it.And so he-- more than anybody else,I think, on that staff-- got the commissioners • 53:32 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: to recommend that the police get out of the drunk business--get drunkenness out of the system.There was this huge revolving door.Somebody would be legally sold an amount of liquor.They'd go out on the street and they'd wobble a little,and then they would be arrested, taken in, put in jail, • 53:52 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: taken to court and fined, and thrown out.And the next day, they'd come back in.So Jerry really got them to say, thisis a waste of police resources.Let's have detox centers.Let's have other street cleaners that--do not put this on the police.And if I had had the wit and the perspective that I have now, • 54:16 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: I think the [INAUDIBLE] we should have hadwas not public drunkenness as something to take outof the system, but we would have taken the drug war outof the system.This is the same kind of thing.It's the same kind of thing, except that the substancesare not legal.We have people come to the crim meetings and the say thingslike, well, everybody should be tested-- all of us, • 54:37 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: the whole audience of criminologists.We should all urinate in a little cup,and have somebody test it to see if we'veused some substance or other in the last two months.And this is nonsense.And I'd say to them, well, what about alcohol?And they'd say, oh, that's legal, as if the law-- you havea law-- as if you hadn't gone through where you • 55:00 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: had a law making it illegal.Except on that occasion, they didn'tmake possession and use illegal, theymade manufacturing and sale.And also, it was a lot easier to get out of thatthan-- when we got into the drug war over the last 40 years--50 years, maybe-- we created this long listof illicit substances that peopleshouldn't be using, because they're not good for them. • 55:22 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: And then we'd put them in jail for long periodsof time, which I can't imagine why theythink that's good for anybody.But anyhow, this is a soapbox I'll get offnow and come back to later.So at any rate, the next big breakwas going to the University of Massachusetts and its computingcenter.And at this point, I do want to say something • 55:44 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: about the debt I owe my son, who got interestedin computers, not surprisingly.I introduced him to the 101, and he was about 10 years old.And he was doing the plug board, wiring and running the cards.And I said, if you like this, you'll love programming.And so eventually, I got a lot of help • 56:04 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: from him, because he became-- well,he's in the computer business now-- the software business.But at one point, he took the big wheels of tapewith all the [INAUDIBLE] data and printed it outin a format that I could handle and work with.And at another point, I was at Arizona State, a visiting • 56:29 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: professor at Arizona State.And they had decided to buy a PC.This was 1984.They decided to buy PCs for everybody.And so they came in.They put this box down, because itwas for the person whose office I was using, who was on leave.And I said, what's that?They said, it's a computer.So it was like Christmas time-- opening it upand set it up on the desk. • 56:51 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: But I didn't have the statistical software for it.So I wrote my son and I said, youknow-- he was working for an outfit whichwas producing APL software.APL means [INAUDIBLE] Programming Language.It's a cult language.I was part of a cult for a while.But because I said, I need the program.And so he sent me the APL system to put on the PC. • 57:14 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: And of course, when I got back to U Mass, I needed a PC.So that was another big break.And then actually, he was even helpfulwhen I was visiting [INAUDIBLE] with BJS.And I was working with [INAUDIBLE] data.And they had sent me the tape.The wheels of tape had a section on them • 57:34 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: that the static wouldn't read.I couldn't read the data.And so he wrote a very nice little Unix routinethat I could put in and get over that hump,and then work with the data.So I owe a lot to my son.But I shouldn't mention him without mentioningmy daughter, who is also full of good advice.But it usually boils down-- if I say, how do I put something • 57:55 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: on YouTube, she says, you're a college professor.You'll figure it out. • 57:58 WENONA RYMOND-RICHMOND: You'll figure it out. • 57:59 ROLAND CHILTON: But that's helpful.Anyway, but U Mass has been really tremendous.Again, Lew Killian, and maybe I should say this in a clear way.Lew Killian was very important in my coming to U Mass--not that I hadn't been offered the job in '66.But when you apply, and you decide to apply again • 58:23 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: three years later, and the fact thatLew Killian had left Florida State, gone upto be the chair at Connecticut-- and hewas the chair at Connecticut at the year of Kent State, in '69.And the faculty were all at each other,and he said he had to go around taking nasty notes off doors,so there wouldn't be fistfights in the hall.There was just a division on the war. • 58:45 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: And anyway, so then he left.He was chair, and kind of preside over this thing.And so he left and went to U Mass.So when I decided to apply again,obviously it was very important.At any rate, the other people-- thereare other people at U Mass.And the director of the computer center • 59:05 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: was really important, and really very helpful.And he's actually-- he's 94 now, or something.But he's still a friend of mine, but he--they were across-the-street neighbors, and at one point,he had my son work, as a high-school student,at the computing center, but not get paid. • 59:27 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: And so I'd kid him.I'd say, yeah, but you didn't pay him.And he said, but I didn't charge you either.So it was, in every way, a very useful, useful experience.And I don't-- I think I'll just skip over by saying there werereally, really helpful people like TO Wilkinson and Gerry • 59:48 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: Platt, and Randall Stokes.They were all, at some point, have been chair.And so, and I go to my next big break,which is the American Society of Criminology.And again, this is happenstance.This is luck.You go to the meetings, and you enjoy meetings,and you meet people. • 01:00:09 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: And then-- or know people.I knew Bill Chambliss.And Bill Chambliss nominated me for-- he kept, youknow, for all kinds of things.And so when Frank Scarpitti said,I need a program chair for the '81 meeting,he said, well, ask Roland.He'll do it.And so I said, yeah.And I actually had gone back to Florida State • 01:00:35 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: 10 years later, as a visiting professor,but not in sociology-- but down in the school of criminology.And those people were so nice to me that-- I was justa visiting professor, but they have me two RAsto help me put together the program for the meetings,and they paid the postage.It was really a really neat deal. • 01:00:57 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: And so I-- again, I should not blockon the name of the dean at that time,but there were a lot of-- let's justsay there were a lot of good people.And certainly, one of them was Ted [INAUDIBLE],who was there, actually, when I was in sociology.And he was a sociologist out of the Universityof Massachusetts, and has gone on • 01:01:17 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: to have a distinguished career.But the next big break-- Frank wanted me to be the secretary.He asked me to be the program chair,and at the end of that year, he got to appoint the secretary,and so he asked me to do that.And so that was-- I spent a lot of time • 01:01:37 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: as secretary of different things,because I was secretary of ASA for a term.And I was also secretary of the faculty center at U Mass.And so I came to the point where,when every says, will somebody take minutes, I say no.No, I don't do that anymore. • 01:01:57 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: But it was very useful experience-- a very,I think, worthwhile activity, that somebody'sgot to keep track of what's going on.Someone's got to report what's going on.And being secretary was, I think--but also, you also met a lot of people.So in terms of the lucky breaks that come from networking, then • 01:02:18 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: obviously, it was helpful.Now, oh, I wanted to mention Sarah Hall, because while I wasthe appointed secretary, Sarah Hall did the job that Chris[INAUDIBLE] does now, but different,because she was a stenographer.And so if you want the minutes of a board meeting • 01:02:38 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: and you have a stenographer who's taking shorthand notes,she knew everything that everybody said.And the minutes aren't supposed to reflect what people said.They're supposed to reflect what the group did.But it was still very useful to have-- you know,she would type-- she would transcribe them and type themup.And then I could pull out [INAUDIBLE] minutes from those.So she was very, very, very helpful • 01:02:59 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: in so many different ways.And again, like I say, Bill was helpfulbecause he nominated me for vice president, once I'd lost.I think some people thought I was vice president.Because I think I ran for it twice, maybe-- I lose track.But in any case, he obviously had nominated me for president. • 01:03:20 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: So it was--And in the process of being secretary,you saw the president work.And I remember Dan Glaser.And Dan is such a nice guy, and he's reallya very decent person.But for running a meeting, he'll drive you crazy.I mean, he just couldn't move it along, or wouldn't.He's too nice to say, is there any more to be said on this, • 01:03:43 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: and then move on.But anyhow, Dan Glaser was impressive in that way.Oh, it was Gil Dice I was trying to remember.Gil Dice was impressive in both written and oral presentations.And he was one of the presenters at that first-- you know,I made the presentation in Los Angeles.He's the one that-- he wrote so well. • 01:04:05 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: He'd been a reporter and he wrote so wellthat when he read his paper, it justsounded like he was talking to you,and he had a knack for that.But the other-- watching, well, Ruth Petersonwas vice president.I think he may become president.I think he's phenomenal. • 01:04:25 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: I just got that at the people of color and crime meetingthe other day.I'm not sure, but anyway-- and of course,I think of Jim Short as a kind of an example of somebodywho hangs in there.I figure, as long as Jim can make these meetings,I can make the meetings. • 01:04:46 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: But he didn't make this one, so I don't know what that means.But anyway, I had actually run into Marvin Wolfgangon the crime commission staff, moving back up here.He was the consult to Lloyd Ohlin.And Lloyd assigned the stuff that those of us on the staff • 01:05:07 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: wrote to a particular person, to react to and critique.And so I feel like I was kind of-- what'sthis, that they're always big on mentors and mentees, and stuff.I feel like I was a kind of mentee of Wolfgang,because I would write the stuff about the uniform crime • 01:05:28 ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: reports, which he knew very well.And I'd get confused about whether it's$50 and over,or up to \$50.And it must have drove him crazy,because he'd write and marked stuff up, and say,you've got to get this right.And so I really appreciated Wolfgang.But there were so many people, I really

• 01:05:50

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: can't name them all, that were helpful, in terms of my career.It's hard to-- I think that yeah,we're probably getting ahead here.I'm going to let you ask some questions,because I want to talk about homicide research workinggroup at some point, but not [INAUDIBLE].

• 01:06:10

WENONA RYMOND RICHMOND: OK, excellent.I'd love to hear about all the research that you've conducted.What are some of the projects that you're most proud of?

• 01:06:18

ROLAND CHILTON: Yeah, I looked at that question and I thought,pride is not exactly the right term.I mean, I was really pleased, early on,to see that the dissertation article-- that I mentioned,it was an ASR article, that it was so frequently cited.And I wasn't sure of why, and eventually it became cited

• 01:06:43

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: and the response was really citedas an example of a mistake.But that's the point of publication.I think we may have gotten to the point--and again, I'm getting ahead here--but we may have gotten to the point where the field no longerallows people to put out a mistake-- that you

• 01:07:05

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: do the best you can.You write the article.And then some reviewers will say, oh, well.You didn't-- you should have written this paper.I may be guilty of that myself, when I review articles.Sometimes I think, gee, the really important thinghere is this, and they're just ignoring it.And so, but I think if that becomes pervasive,

• 01:07:27

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: it's a bad thing, because you wantto let people write the article that they want to write.And then if they're saying something wrong,the idea of the publication processis that somebody that knows something about itwill then write an article correcting that, and pointingout what the right direction [INAUDIBLE].But in any case, like I say, I don't

• 01:07:50

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: think I would say I was proud of it,but I really was pleased by the reception.And it probably was a big thing in making my career,because it was cited often enoughthat in the book that Wolfgang and his colleagueswrote and published in 1979, theytried to assess criminology.So they had this notion of, what's

• 01:08:11

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: the best criminological work that's beendone in the last so many years.I don't know how far they went back.And so there was obviously an enormous--they were using-- they had two ways approach-- a citationindex, and then they had people do a qualitative reviewof the articles that they thought were best,and they weren't cited.[INAUDIBLE] a nice idea.

• 01:08:33

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: And some were in both lists, and some weren't.And I only made the citation list,and just barely, because they went down to the halfway point,I guess.And it turned out that at that point, about number 80,the dissertation article was cited.And so I was on the list.And I thought, well, that's pretty neat,

• 01:08:54

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: because I had just started out.I used to run into people at meetings, and they'd say,I thought you were an old man.I mean, this was when I was a young man.Now, they meet me, they have met an old man.But when I wrote that article, I was still pretty young.And so the fact that it got so much attention--But I think the one I'm really proud of probably

• 01:09:17

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: didn't get a lot of attention, and that'sthat one where I look at the Suitable HomeLaw and its consequences.To me, that's the kind of work that Ithink I should be doing, and doing more of-- not that I'vedone enough of it.But I actually-- I want to mention Chris Smith.

• 01:09:40

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: Because Chris is, as you know-- you know Chris.She's one of our current students,and since she's one of the few people interestedin criminology at U Mass these days--and so I was talking to her.And I was explaining that I was going to do this interview.And I said, they want to know about my career,and I don't really know how to get a handle on it.

• 01:10:00

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: And she said, oh, just Google Scholar yourself.And so I did that.No, she did it.Actually, she did it.She gave me the list, and it's just-- it's kind of truncatedhere, but it's OK.It's the nine most frequently-cited articlesof my work.And actually, I don't think the article that I really

• 01:10:25

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: liked makes the list.But one of the things that I look at the list--if I look at the list, there are nine articles here, cited.The top one was cited 168 times, the other 22 times.But on these nine articles, there are six co-authors.And so I really want to mention the co-authors.

• 01:10:47

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: One of them was Gerald Marshall.And he was a graduate student at Florida State,and he was assigned to me as a teaching assistant.But he had been a biology student,so he came into my office.And he said, let's not fool around with this teachingassistant stuff.Let's do some research together.I said, OK.

• 01:11:08

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: And then I had data, and I had the data becauseof another really important person, in some ways,it was this guy named Ollie Keller.And he was the director of the FloridaDivision of Youth Services.And he was looking for somebody whowould be-- under that heading, hegot the juvenile court reports.

• 01:11:29

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: And he had to develop some kind of a statistical reportingprogram.So he was looking for somebody to do that,and I said I would do it for the data.If I could have all the data, I would do it.And he said, no.He said, I've discovered that it's better if you pay people.Just volunteers, he didn't think were very reliable.

• 01:11:50

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: You can't fire them.You can't really do much.So I said, OK.Put some money-- Charlie Brigham, he and I got togetherand go, we'll put some money into the institute.I get the data, and you get the work.So Ollie Keller was important.And it meant that I did have data on these juvenile courtreferrals.And so I said to Gerry [INAUDIBLE],

• 01:12:12

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: let me see if I can make sure I got the right article here.This was the family disruption.Because one of the things that comes out in juvenilecourt statistics is that a lot of these kidscome from what we used to call broken homes.And looking back over it now, some of those kidsprobably-- there wasn't any home to break.There was a lot of mother/child families, probably.

• 01:12:34

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: And I'm not sure how we coded that.It's a long time ago.I remember talking about an article we wrote in-- whatis the date on this thing?Oh, '72-- so I don't remember it that well.But I remember the experience of having a graduate student say,let's not fool around here.Let's do something worthwhile.

• 01:12:54

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: So that's the second most-cited article.And so I want to recognize Gerry Marco.And then another that's up there on the listis one I did with Susan Datesman on gender, race, and crime.And that was a marvellous collaboration,because we just-- we decided who's

• 01:13:15

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: going to take this piece, who's going to take this piece.And what she said she was going to do, she did.And I think she was the one that said, let's put itin Gender and Society.I don't think I knew about the journal.So anyhow, really proud to have an articlein Gender and Society.I don't know whether Gender and Society is proud of mine,

• 01:13:35

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: but anyway, that was another.And one of the other-- in a way, well, yeah.Another one is John Jarvis.I haven't mentioned Homicide Research Working Group.This might be a good time to do it, because--

• 01:13:49

WENONA RYMOND-RICHMOND: How did you get involved withthe Homicide--

• 01:13:53

ROLAND CHILTON: Oh, yeah.Did I tell you that?The accident?I told you about the call, where--

• 01:13:58

WENONA RYMOND-RICHMOND: Right, right.

• 01:13:60

ROLAND CHILTON: Yeah, where Mark Ridel called.Well, I went to that meeting at Quantico.And at that Quantico meeting-- thisis when John Jarvis was with UCR,before he went to the FBI Academy--and he told us about that data that we couldn't have.But by the next year, he was bringing data.And pretty soon, we were working together,and we published a couple articles together,

• 01:14:22

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: using the [INAUDIBLE] data, comparing itwith the victimization survey, and so on.And so that's another one that makesthe list, because-- but John Jarvis wasvery important in that.And then the one with Adele Spielberger,again, using the delinquency data-- and here,

• 01:14:44

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: I've really lost track of exactly who led me to this.But it was certainly Wellford and oneof his colleagues-- Charles Wellfordand one of his colleagues.While I was on the crime commission staff,they submitted something that-- it was an age-specific analysisof crime.So since we had this Florida data,

• 01:15:06

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: and there was just a tremendous increase in the number,the question was, would an age-specific analysisindicate that delinquency was really increasing,or was it just a reflection of an increased number of peoplein the delinquency age groups?And so Adele Spielberger-- she was not faculty,and she wasn't a graduate student.

• 01:15:26

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: She had an-- somebody working in the Institute for SocialResearch, and a very bright woman.Her husband's on the psychology faculty.And so she wrote that article with me,and that worked out very well.The others are basically graduate students--

• 01:15:47

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: Jan Diamikus.And there, I got to do something thathad to do with drugs and over-criminalization.That is the use of the criminal law in areas where it reallydoesn't work well.And so we at least got that in the title,but we're basically looking at the seriousness scoresthat Wolfgang had developed.So I hope I haven't missed anybody here.

• 01:16:11

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: Oh, I think I'm sure I have.One person I've missed is Dee Webber.And she's like Adele Spielberger.She had been a graduate student, but decided she reallywasn't interested in pursuing a PhD,and she'd just rather work with helping people with their data.Is this going on too long?

• 01:16:27

WENONA RYMOND-RICHMOND: No.

• 01:16:29

ROLAND CHILTON: At any rate, Dee Webber and Iorganized the-- they took and rearranged,reorganized the setup of UCR arrest datato make it more usable.And for a while, it was.I think the ICPSR, which I got to get somewhere in here--it's another important lucky break, is finding ICPSR.

• 01:16:53

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: But I think somewhere, there might be changesmade it hard to use again.But for a while, it was very easy to use.And so a number of students were using that data,and then citing the source.And so it shows up, as if we had written a paper.But Dee and I never wrote a paper together,but we did work on that data.People did use the data, and then cite us

• 01:17:14

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: as the source of the data.So that's a kind of interesting thing.Getting back to the original question of whatI'm most proud of, it's just-- like I say,I don't think-- pride, it's the funI had doing it, and especially running the data [INAUDIBLE] I

• 01:17:36

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: may have told you in some of our earlier discussionsthat [INAUDIBLE].And people are really quick, fast.They can do all kinds of things in a hurry.It doesn't come easy to me.And so in a way, what I'm always torn betweenis, should I sit down and write something now,

• 01:17:56

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: or should I make another run?Because part of the fun is analyzing the data,and there is always another questionyou can ask of the data.So I didn't mention-- back when wewere talking about people at Indiana-- Norwood RussellHanson.He was a philosopher of science, but hegave a lot of public lectures.

• 01:18:17

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: And he was very influential, because he-- for my work,because he introduced me to the concept of retroduction.You know, there's induction and deduction.And I don't think he invented it,but he was very big on retroduction, whichis the system whereby you look at a set of data,

• 01:18:39

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: and you see-- what kind of theorywould it take to explain this data?And so you start with the data, so it'sinductive in that sense.But you're really trying to say, what kind of theory--this isn't really that different from what Cressey and LindaSmith were doing with what they called analytic induction.

• 01:19:01

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: And that goes way back, but their approachwas quite different.They'd say, look at a set of data and formulate a theory.Then you'd look at another case, and if that doesn't fit,you [INAUDIBLE] the theory.And the question is, when do you stop looking at cases?But I think his was comparable to that-- the retroductionnotion-- because what you're doingis, you're starting with the data and you're saying,

• 01:19:22

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: what kind of theory would explain this?And to me, that's just been a more attractive approachthen taking some theory that somebody thought up,without looking at any data, but because they've modifiedsomebody else's theory.At any rate, I don't want to be too hard on theorists,or I'll get hate mail or something.Anyway, the-- where are we?

• 01:19:44

WENONA RYMOND-RICHMOND: What would yousay are the identifying characteristics of your work?How would you identify yourself as a scholar?

• 01:19:52

ROLAND CHILTON: Well, I don't know.Maybe people wouldn't consider it scholarship,but I think the driving theme in my workis that we need more and better data.And actually, that's not my idea.And I'm trying to think of the name of the person

• 01:20:13

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: that I got it from.But it was a prominent criminologist,giving a presentation at ASA.And he said, we don't need any more crummy theories.We just need more and better data.And I thought, boy, he's got that right.And so-- not that theories are necessarily crummy,but there is probably an excess of theory, relative to what

• 01:20:36

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: we actually know-- what we could actually test,and what we could say is true.And so I'd say that's-- if anyone said, what is it--what is it Chilton, [INAUDIBLE].Well, he just has a long-standing commitmentto improving crime data, and the need for more and better data.

• 01:20:57

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: I suppose the best work on this is-- I'm blocking out his namenow, but it'll come to me.He and someone else wrote the book Crime Is Not the Problem.Zimring-- Franklin Zimring and [INAUDIBLE].

• 01:21:14

WENONA RYMOND RICHMOND: [INAUDIBLE].

• 01:21:16

ROLAND CHILTON: OK, anyways, theywrote a book called Crime Is Not the Problem.And people kind of took that literally.What they really were saying was that in the United States,if you take out violent crime, our crime rates are notthat different from other industrial countries,but that where we excel is in violence.

• 01:21:35

WENONA RYMOND RICHMOND: In violence, yeah.

• 01:21:37

ROLAND CHILTON: And that was the pointhe was trying to make-- that we should be looking at violence.And people responded to that by saying,no, crime is the problem.This-- really kind of missing the point.

• 01:21:44

WENONA RYMOND RICHMOND: [INAUDIBLE] from it.

• 01:21:46

ROLAND CHILTON: Yeah, missing the point,by taking that line that-- I mean, what he was sayingis crime in general is not the problem.It's very specific kinds of crime we should be focused on.So I think I've been influenced by that, in my later work.And also, I think one of the big breakswas finding the [INAUDIBLE] data,

• 01:22:08

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: because this is a source of informationon the incident, that's incident-based--meaning that you start with the incident,and then you ask what information youhave about the offender, if any, and what informationyou have about the victims.And so you can have, quote, victim and offender

• 01:22:28

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: information, and defense information,and so that there's a tremendous amount of informationthat the law enforcement officer keys inand they respond to a call for service.So obviously, there are going to be some mistakes in it.But the idea is that you could then reallytalk about offenders and victims.And I think too often in criminology,

• 01:22:49

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: people get lost on that score, and youdon't know whether they're talkingabout offenders or victims.And frequently, they really are talking about victims,and they think they're talking about offenders.And if you use the offense is known the police,that's really a victim file, because these are offenses.And if a robbery comes to the attention of the police,it comes because there was a victim that called it in.

• 01:23:10

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: So it's really victim data.But in [INAUDIBLE], if the victims and witnesses--if they gave any information about the offenders,you'd always have some informationabout the offenders.So you could not only make the distinction,you should make the distinction.So [INAUDIBLE] should, but that's the [INAUDIBLE].

• 01:23:29

WENONA RYMOND-RICHMOND: What would a perfect data setlook like to you?How could it be improved?What would be the ideal data set?

• 01:23:37

ROLAND CHILTON: That's a great question.Let me see if I can find the limitations of, say,what I think is now the best data availableprobably comes from [INAUDIBLE].But I just recently led a study thattook place in Finland, where they

• 01:23:58

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: use a series of registries.Now, a registry is as an official source of information.And in this country, probably the easiest-- and most useful--let's say you're interested in social class and crime.And so you want to know income and occupation-- maybeyou can get education.Now, the source of the education might come from the census.

• 01:24:20

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: The best source of employment datais held by the Social Security Administration,and they know who's working, and how long they've worked,and [INAUDIBLE].And the best source of income data is IRS.Now, we consider those registries.And I say, we're going to take a random sample of residentsof the United States.

• 01:24:42

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: And we're going to take informationfrom each of those three registries,and then we're going to ask the ACR to tell us,from their records of arrest and prosecution,which of these people have been arrested and prosecutedfor what.Then you could talk about-- you don'tget into the thing you get into with the survey, where you--

• 01:25:02

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: victimization survey, say, you call people upand you ask them what their income is.And they say, no, I'm not going to tell you that.They really are over the-- I don't know if it's true[INAUDIBLE].But for the last five years, theyweren't reporting the income of victims,because they weren't getting that information from victims.See, now, if you had this set of registries,

• 01:25:25

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: you wouldn't have the missing data,and you could redo the victimization survey.You could look at a number of questionsabout people who were offenders-- [INAUDIBLE]offenders and victims.And you wouldn't have the missing data on things.You'd have more than [INAUDIBLE].You'd have some serious income data,

• 01:25:46

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: and you'd have some serious employment data.So if I were saying-- and so, well, you probablyguessed what the problem is.The problem is that under our law,these agencies cannot share information.They can't give each other information.And it may be getting worse in that sense,

• 01:26:07

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: that there are so many pressures on CDCthat they're even cracking down on providinggeographic indicators, which meansif I want to know how many people were reportedas homicide victims or suicide victimsin the public health data, I can get it for the whole country.But I don't know what's happening in Peoria,

• 01:26:27

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: or New York, or Chicago.And that information has been removed since 2005.It was available up until then.But your question of what would a perfect data set looklike-- it's a good question.I just don't know if I could answer it.But it's certainly-- you'd hope there are possibilities

• 01:26:48

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: for representing more than a very small set of people.And I think, hope, that there was-- [INAUDIBLE]more than a survey, in which you haveto rely on the people answering to answer honestly.And especially, self-report surveys,

• 01:27:10

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: which became hugely popular in sociology and criminology--and it still is, I suppose.I go to sessions now where their measure of crimeis what the kids told them they did.And we had some indication of the problemswith that when they were doing a series of-- a lot of concerns

• 01:27:32

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: with drug use in the Amherst schools,and so they finally got so that maybe theycould do a survey of the Amherst high-school kidsand their drug use.But of course, the school committeewanted to carefully monitor what kind of questions you ask them.But the most interesting thing about itis when reporters went to these kidsafterwards and said, when they asked you those questions,

• 01:27:52

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: did you tell the truth?And you know what some of the kids said.Some of them said, never.And other kids said, yeah, all the time.And so you just don't know.And so I think a really good data set--it would be a set of data sets where you can actuallyclock one against the other, where you actually get-- you

• 01:28:14

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: get some kind of triangulation so you're not depending on justwhat the person said, or just what the registry said,but you've got both of them.That's about all I can do with that.That's a really good question, though.

• 01:28:29

WENONA RYMOND-RICHMOND: Well, my next question is relatedto that, about your general thoughts about the field--maybe directions it should go, and maybe--

• 01:28:38

ROLAND CHILTON: Yeah, you know what?It's like the question that they talked about adviceto young people, and so on.One of the problems is, as you get old,you get this-- you run into-- in the Marine Corps,the phrase was, it's not like the old Corps.You know, it's a kind of looking down at what's going on now,

• 01:29:01

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: because we did it differently then.And so it's really hard to say where the field should go.But from my perspective, taking a theory fact value perspectiveon it, especially focusing on values,I think we may have drifted too far into trying to accommodate

• 01:29:23

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: people enforcing laws that shouldn'tbe enforced-- that shouldn't be laws in the first place.So for example, if I say I think I'dlike to be known for a person interestedin more and better data, I guess what I'd reallylike to be known for is a person who

• 01:29:43

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: has persistently and consistently pointedout the folly of our drug war.I mean, I think our drug wars is a travesty.It's more than a travesty.We have locked up so many people for thingsthat are not dangerous, in the name of the drug war,that we've created this huge industry, which we're just

• 01:30:05

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: now starting to take apart and-- I put a sessionyesterday, where California has reduced the numbers of peoplein their prison by half, just by taking outnon-violent offenders and drug offenders.And I'm thinking, we don't need to keep those people locked up.And so I wish I had done more on that score,

• 01:30:26

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: and worked harder to make people aware.Anybody that's listening that wantsto see a stab at this that I madewas to look at my presidential address,they called it, in 2000.And if you look there, you'll see that I reallydefine what I mean by folly, and I really

• 01:30:47

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: suggest that we ought to be out of that business.So, but in answer to your question,how should-- what should the field be doing,I really hope that there will be some kind of sectionor some kind of group that says, the legislatureshould revise the criminal code every 10 years.And they should look at it to make sense out it.

• 01:31:10

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: Now, this was the original idea that Judge Frankelhad when he recommended the sentencing commission.As far as-- when I read his book,and I reviewed it at the time that it was published--which was in the '70s sometime-- but thatnever got published, because they found a better reviewer.I don't know.

• 01:31:31

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: Anyway, the point is, I did the review, and I read the book.And it was worth doing, and Frankelhad some really good examples of placeswhere the law itself was irrational,like the penalty for kidnapping a dogis more serious or heavier than the penalty for killing a dog.

• 01:31:53

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: I mean, you can see the logic.If you kidnap the dog, you'd betterkill it, because you're going to get off easier.But that kind of-- but what he was pointing to was hethought there were lots of examples where a sentencingcommission could look at and rationalize the criminal law.Now, it could be that the new [INAUDIBLE] Correctionsand Sentencing division-- see, I don't know much

• 01:32:17

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: about their work.It could be that they're doing this kind of work,where they're saying, what we should be doingis taking a particular state, looking at its criminal code,and suggesting places where it's irrationaland it doesn't make sense.Now, the legislature makes the law,so it doesn't mean that somebody suggesting to them [INAUDIBLE]really rational criminal law would make a lot of headway.

• 01:32:40

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: But I think it would be worth the effort.So you say, where should the field-- where should it go?I think there really should be more of that.And we may have drifted into a situationwhere the only value statement you can make in criminology--we went through this with the debate on,should we condemn the death penalty?

• 01:32:60

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: And I think of, again, Frank Zimring.He said, quoting Lincoln, "If slavery isn't wrong,nothing is wrong."And certainly, if the death penalty isn't wrong,as a rational approach to misbehavior, nothing is wrong.But in any case, the-- I lost track of the thought there.

• 01:33:23

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: What was the question again?

• 01:33:24

WENONA RYMOND-RICHMOND: About wherethe field should be spending attention, [INAUDIBLE].

• 01:33:27

ROLAND CHILTON: Yeah, I think there reallyshould be more people asking the question-- not can wehelp people operating the system of justice improve their work,and be more efficient, but are thereways in which we can give them advice to stop doing thingsthat they're doing that don't make sense,

• 01:33:49

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: so that instead of people putting in for more moneyto study drug courts, you know, somebody should be saying,does this make any sense?Why do we have drug courts?We have drug courts because we don't want run-- [INAUDIBLE]fill up the criminal courts.And then, and you say, well, why are we filling upthe criminal courts with drug casesand just diverting them to another court?

• 01:34:10

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: Does that make any sense?In other words, what I'm saying is, I hope--

• 01:34:14

WENONA RYMOND-RICHMOND: Get to the root of the problem.

• 01:34:15

ROLAND CHILTON: Yeah, I would hope that the field wouldgo more in the direction-- now, this is a really-- thisis a really unlikely quote, because I thinkthe current direction could be characterizedas the shift from criminology to criminal justice.The current emphasis is on trying-- just

• 01:34:36

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: assuming that the law, as it stands, is good and right,and there's no such thing as unjust law.Jerome Hall called it bad law.And it's inconsistent with our basic documents,our basic philosophy.And I think Martin Luther King called it.There's just law and unjust law.And so, I sure hope that if we go back--

• 01:34:58

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: if we get into situations where people are putting peoplein jail for wanting to vote, that we won't havecriminologists trying to rehabilitate them,or suggesting rehabilitation, or putting in for grants to studyrehabilitation.You know what I'm saying?It's just-- there are things that we ought to be doingand things we ought not to be doing.And I came away-- I guess about two years after I

• 01:35:23

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: was president, I came away with the feelingthat as a society, the American Society of Criminology,there's only one what.There's only one value question that people can agree on.And that is the government ought to give usmore money to do more research.Even though we can't agree on what that research suggests

• 01:35:46

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: that the government ought to do, or we'rekind of unwilling to question the current--it's probably changing.I'm probably off the mark here.And you know, it's probably changing.I think more and more people will say, yea,having that more of our population, per capita,locked up than any other country in the world

• 01:36:09

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: does not make sense.And I think even conservative politicians now arelooking at the cost of that.And actually, they're really actually looking,I think, at the cost of having a death penalty asopposed to not having one.There were studies.There were studies done in North Carolina and other placesthat showed how much the average death penalty cost,

• 01:36:32

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: and why it was more expensive to have a death penaltythan not have it.And when I presented that to the class sometimes,students who had a gut feeling in favor of the death penaltysay, yeah, but you don't want to make this a money problem.You don't want economic problems.You don't want to make-- but I think it's possible thatcontemporary conservatives will--

• 01:36:50

WENONA RYMOND-RICHMOND: Appeal to them.

• 01:36:52

ROLAND CHILTON: It'll appeal to them,and we may get rid of the death penaltyin states we didn't think we could.Although, [INAUDIBLE] I was talkingto Gordon Waldo, who was at Florida State when I was there.And he's now retired, but he's a lobbyist at the Floridalegislature, trying to get rid of the death penalty, whichis a really worthwhile effort.But I think he and I both agree that the likelihood is slim,

• 01:37:13

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: although there is this possibilitythat there will be enough people recognizing [INAUDIBLE].So I don't know-- another tough question.And anybody should be hesitant to answer,is that where should the field begoing-- the field's going to go where it goes.But I hope we have a compass [INAUDIBLE].

• 01:37:37

WENONA RYMOND RICHMOND: Absolutely.And the theme through the interviewso far is, you've talked a lot about change the system.We need to change parts of the system.

• 01:37:46

ROLAND CHILTON: Oh, yeah.I really believe that.I think you can't just assume because it's the law, that ithas to be the law.As people are going around with the drug testing and things--I just have trouble understandingwhat's going on in their heads.I guess they might really believethat substances other than tobacco and alcohol, which

• 01:38:07

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: are very dangerous-- this was actuallyone of the advantages of growing up in Eerie.Those people that came in, they said, don't drink.Don't smoke.And they were right.And it probably lengthened my lifethat I never started smoking.I wouldn't even go into a tavern to buymy mother a bottle of beer.

• 01:38:27

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: I really believed them and took it seriously.And I was a teetotaler for a lot of my life.Now I have a drink now and then.I really don't enjoy it.I mean I don't really drink that much.I certainly don't want to incapacitate myself.But what I'm saying here is that we spent all this moneygetting people to buy alcohol, and now it's on television.

• 01:38:50

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: You get all kinds of alcohol ads on television--sophisticated ads.And then we lock people up because theyuse another mood-altering substance, which in some casesis not even as dangerous.And so you kind of have to-- it drives me backto my early cynicism.You remember, I think it was the character in Lily Tomlin's playwho said, no matter how cynical I get, it's not enough.

• 01:39:13

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: And you sometimes feel that way whenyou see the direction we're going and the things wedo as a society.You see the numbers of people that [INAUDIBLE] locked up,and the reasons we lock them up, and the characteristicsof the people locked up.And of course, I've heard a number of really good talksat this session about that.And actually, I think it was Young-- Professor

• 01:39:39

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: Young, in his talk, pointing out that things shift.And this may be changing, and we may actuallysee people in congress, who are not there to undermine things--the programs that are good for people--but actually support them, and instead of closing downthe government, actually increasing the government'shelp in a number of areas.

• 01:40:00

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: So I think it's kind of optimistic,and I think, I guess that's the duality in me.I'm really an optimist--

• 01:40:09

WENONA RYMOND-RICHMOND: With a lot of cynicism.

• 01:40:11

ROLAND CHILTON: But let's say skepticism.But sometimes it comes out as a kind of a feigned cynicism.You know, when you say things like,well, you can't trust anybody, not even your own mother.And that's really not fair, for a woman to move 18 timesin 21 years, and have 10 children-- I don't knowif I got that in, but I have the six brothers and-- five

• 01:40:32

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: brothers and four sisters.And so my idea of hell is solitary confinement.I shouldn't say that in public.Somebody will think I deserve it.But anyhow, but the point is-- that's about it.

• 01:40:50

WENONA RYMOND-RICHMOND: OK.Roland, I want to thank you tremendouslyfor doing this interview.And I always learn so much from you, each time we talk.And one of my lucky breaks is being in an officeright next door to you.

• 01:41:04

ROLAND CHILTON: Right, and I was going to say, over the years,I've enjoyed talking to you.You remember when you first interviewed at U Mass,and you said--

• 01:41:12

WENONA RYMOND-RICHMOND: I remember.I was showing that to the [INAUDIBLE].

• 01:41:15

ROLAND CHILTON: Yeah, and I said I went to [INAUDIBLE] Tech,and you said you went to [INAUDIBLE] Tech.Because 30 years later, the whole area was different.But I live in-- that was one of the areas welived in, in West Monroe Street, west of Western Avenue.I took the street car to [INAUDIBLE].And so we have a kind of a lot in common, at least

• 01:41:36

ROLAND CHILTON [continued]: in our affection for Chicago.

• 01:41:38

WENONA RYMOND RICHMOND: Absolutely.

• 01:41:39

ROLAND CHILTON: Anyway, it's been fun.Thank you.

• 01:41:42

WENONA RYMOND-RICHMOND: Thank you, Roland.

# An Interview with Roland Chilton

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## Abstract

Professors Wenona Rymond-Richmond and Roland Chilton discuss Chilton's career in criminology and criminal justice. Chilton emphasizes the contributions others made to his life and career. He also explains that he'd like the field to tackle unjust laws like the war on drugs, and to help bring logic and proportion to sentencing.

An Interview with Roland Chilton

Professors Wenona Rymond-Richmond and Roland Chilton discuss Chilton's career in criminology and criminal justice. Chilton emphasizes the contributions others made to his life and career. He also explains that he'd like the field to tackle unjust laws like the war on drugs, and to help bring logic and proportion to sentencing.

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